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New York Mag is Skeptical


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rastaram
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« on: February 18, 2010, 04:43:33 pm »

And since athletic director Frank McLaughlin is the same guy who oversaw their last attempt at buying relevance in the form of "the bad coach", forgive us if we're skeptical this time, too.

Read more: In Which We Struggle With the Concept of Fordham Spending Money on Basketball -- The Sports Section http://nymag.com/daily/sports/2010/02/in_which_we_struggle_with_the.html#ixzz0fvUYSQx4
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« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2010, 05:40:59 pm »

This is spot on accurate. I don't understand why anyone (myself included) cares if we bring back Grasso, hire Rice, or bring in some washed up coach. Whatever the case we are probably destined for failure. Grasso will have 20 losses by next week. DW, Hill, Nick all had multiple 20 loss seasons. This is bigger than a coach.

Also, why is Gray involved in picking a coach. I have in the past discussed college hoops with Dean Gray and I can assure everyone that he displayed very little knowledge of basketball. While he may be qualified for his job managing student housing I have no idea why he is involved with athletics. 
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« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2010, 05:43:37 pm »

When Fordham sports is being called out by the likes of New York mag, we've hit rock bottom.  This is a mainstream, non-sports, popular publication.  Super embarassing.

It also shows the kind of attention a well-produced program could garner.
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« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2010, 05:53:02 pm »

When Fordham sports is being called out by the likes of New York mag, we've hit rock bottom.  This is a mainstream, non-sports, popular publication.  Super embarassing.

It also shows the kind of attention a well-produced program could garner.

On the positive side this is the most publicity we have received in years, especially with readers of smug, wanna be hip magazines  Wink
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« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2010, 06:39:12 pm »

This article was written by one of the guys who wrote that piece about visiting the RHG for the GW game.  He is a Fordham grad.

I disagree with those saying that irrespective of who we hire it won't matter, that we will fail.  I do however agree with those that are concerned that same people who were involved with our last two or three hires are a big part of the group that is working on this hire.

The right coach can get things done here if they work around the deficiencies instead of citing them left and right as to why they can't get things done.  That is one of the main reasons I am against any retread.  They have experienced things being done the right way and might have trouble adapting to the apparently disfunctional way our Athletic Department is run.
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« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2010, 10:36:44 am »

I hope I am wrong but looking at past performance I'm afraid it is difficult for any coach to win under the existing structure. As a passionate fan i'll hope for the best but I i'll be prepared for more of the same.
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« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2010, 10:55:19 am »

Not to oversimplify things, but if a coach comes in here and dedicates himself to recruiting and coaching he can win here.  If he lets the facilities, the need to compete for practice space with the volleyball team or intramurals, the issues with the dorm rooms in the Winter, etc. get in the way then he will lose focus and wind up like our past two coaches.  I am not saying that this will lead to us being a top A10 program, but it can lead to us being a top A10 team.
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Nothing replaces success in the revenue sports.  Nothing.  That's not to take away from the success in the Olympic sports - they do matter.  It isn't a replacement for success in the flagship sports. - Debbie Yow, AD - NC State
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« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2010, 11:26:09 am »

First off, G-ray is not a Dean.   He is a VP.    I would also dispute the statement that he does a good job in other spheres at Fordham.    ResLife is a mess.   There are myriad of problems in other student areas and which he routinely regards as a nuisance and dismisses them with a condescending arrogance that is shocking.     He needs to go and go now....on the first train to leave Fordham Road station we can throw him on.   Instead of being part of the solution in fixing Fordham Athletics he has been part of the problem, the Fordham Drag.  Accepting mediocrity and worse, in an institution which prides itself on academic excellence.   

I do agree with JMac that the source of the problem is administration: personnel (Grank) and money being misspent.   Unless and until those problems are resolved (hiring a new dynamic AD and someone competent on spending money, not wasting money) we will not be a winner.

Its shocking that we spend currently 21 million a year and have such horrific facilities and pathetic concessions and advertising across the university athletic field.    Where is that money going? I mean it really begs the question.    The Board is responsible in a FIDUCIARY RELATIONSHIP TO THE UNIVERSITY, to oversee how money is spent and that we get the best bang for the buck.   They have not done their job, it seems to me.

That is why I questioned throwing more good money after bad.   If we dont spend it wisely, its just more wasted money.     Richmond spends a LOT less than we do.  They were NCAA Div 1AA (FCS) Champions two years ago in Football.   THey are highly competitive in basketball with NUMEROUS invitations to the Big Dance.  Yet they are a small school in Richmond, Virginia with exceedingly high academic standards and even higher personal conduct standards.     They put us to shame.   They really do.

So my message to the BOT and to Fr. McShane is this:  Thanks for the memories.   Now lets fire Grank, hire a COMPETENT AND VISIONARY AD, and spend money WISELY, consistent with your FIDUCIARY responsibilities.   

We can hire Rice, Grasso, Massiello, Donahue, Cluess, Pitino, Knight, Coach K for all I care.   Unless and until Grank is gone, the Fordham Drag will continue.

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« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2010, 11:50:52 am »

Not to oversimplify things, but if a coach comes in here and dedicates himself to recruiting and coaching he can win here.  If he lets the facilities, the need to compete for practice space with the volleyball team or intramurals, the issues with the dorm rooms in the Winter, etc. get in the way then he will lose focus and wind up like our past two coaches.  I am not saying that this will lead to us being a top A10 program, but it can lead to us being a top A10 team.

I agree that if a coach comes it with just those two areas of focus; recruiting and coaching, it is possible to have limited success.  Even DW had his moment in the sun. 

What will inevitably happen though is the coach, whoever he is will burn out in a few years.  It is inescapable.  You have to work twice as hard as everyone else.  You expect that in a start-up, but because the real issues are never fixed, it's like being in a constant start up phase.  It gets old, the coach burns out, players get sick of dealing with it, recruits get stale and just when you have a decent year, it all starts to roll back down the hill. 

Money will help some issues.  A seachange is needed to insure any continuity.
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« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2010, 11:56:59 am »

What will inevitably happen though is the coach, whoever he is will burn out in a few years.  It is inescapable.  You have to work twice as hard as everyone else.  You expect that in a start-up, but because the real issues are never fixed, it's like being in a constant start up phase.  It gets old, the coach burns out, players get sick of dealing with it, recruits get stale and just when you have a decent year, it all starts to roll back down the hill.

That is precisely why many here say that making this job a stepping stone would not be a bad thing.  It would be nice to be in a position where we start losing coaches rather than losing with them.
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Nothing replaces success in the revenue sports.  Nothing.  That's not to take away from the success in the Olympic sports - they do matter.  It isn't a replacement for success in the flagship sports. - Debbie Yow, AD - NC State
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« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2010, 12:14:46 pm »

Not to oversimplify things, but if a coach comes in here and dedicates himself to recruiting and coaching he can win here.  If he lets the facilities, the need to compete for practice space with the volleyball team or intramurals, the issues with the dorm rooms in the Winter, etc. get in the way then he will lose focus and wind up like our past two coaches.  I am not saying that this will lead to us being a top A10 program, but it can lead to us being a top A10 team.

Not oversimplifying at all Ace.  I think a coach can deal with the obviously hard-to-fix issues like not having a new Arena; it's the petty issues like some you outlined here which are relatively simple to fix yet so irritating over the long haul when they aren't addressed.  I call it "death by a thousand paper cuts".
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« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2010, 01:06:16 pm »

Exactly, Ace.  Our coach should not have to fix many of the issues we have.  It's the job of the AD's office.  Our AD's lack of effort and competence should not be the coach's burden.  But, as long as the situation remains the same, a young, hungry assistant who is looking for wins and recruiting coups with a plan to move up in a few years is our best bet.  Our equivalent of Rice at RMU: build up a gaudy short term record and name and be a candidate elsewhere.  Repeat until the university and AD's office has a plan, a committment, and the program details attended to professionally.  A young hungry assistant can essentially ignore our shortcomings looking ahead to greener pastures.
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« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2010, 04:46:23 pm »

So many opinions, so little insight.  Fordham's lack of success in Basketball lies in the negative energy that surrounds the program.  Fire this one or that one, our gym has no bathrooms, the Administration is incompetent, if only they would do this and that, and so on.  Time to set the record straight:  (1)  The epicenter of basketball has left NY (see St. John's program), as local coaches do not encourage their kids to stay here (2) We have no natural rivals in the A-10, the MAAC is a better fit (3)  If we are going to stay in the A-10, we will have to relinquish complete control (again) to a coach who may not have the best interest of the University, certainly a risk on many levels. (4) If our negative attitudes permiate potential recruits, the media, coaches, students, etc. no one will give us the time of day, I know other schools monitor this site, they laugh harder at our posts than our record.
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« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2010, 04:58:30 pm »


Also, why is Gray involved in picking a coach. I have in the past discussed college hoops with Dean Gray and I can assure everyone that he displayed very little knowledge of basketball. While he may be qualified for his job managing student housing I have no idea why he is involved with athletics. 

While it is some degree of comfort that the BOT have allocated more scratch for the men hoops program, the fact that the HC search is being spearheaded by a glorified R.A. is troubling.  With all that, I understand that there are some legitimate outsider(s) involved in the process which gives me some hope that this process differs, at least a bit, from prior searches.
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« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2010, 05:22:45 pm »

So many opinions, so little insight.  Fordham's lack of success in Basketball lies in the negative energy that surrounds the program.  Fire this one or that one, our gym has no bathrooms, the Administration is incompetent, if only they would do this and that, and so on.  Time to set the record straight:  (1)  The epicenter of basketball has left NY (see St. John's program), as local coaches do not encourage their kids to stay here (2) We have no natural rivals in the A-10, the MAAC is a better fit (3)  If we are going to stay in the A-10, we will have to relinquish complete control (again) to a coach who may not have the best interest of the University, certainly a risk on many levels. (4) If our negative attitudes permiate potential recruits, the media, coaches, students, etc. no one will give us the time of day, I know other schools monitor this site, they laugh harder at our posts than our record.

And what insight did you offer? 
That we are a better fit in the MAAC.  Yes, that's been said before.  I hesitantly, partially agree. 
That we should stop being so negative.  It is hard, but yes, I agree.

What is your suggested move, how should FU proceed?
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« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2010, 05:38:22 pm »

Outsiders?  Did someone say "OUTSIDERS?"  That is a serious sin to utter those words!  Go straight to confession!   

God Forbid that Fordham did something not Fordham/New York-centric!

Oh the HORRORS!

As for answering Ace's suggestion, though not asked of me, I think humor can play a good role, and that confident feeling that once we get rid of Grank (think of VE-Day after the Big War), we can open up our closed shutters, let the sunshine in and start to work on rebuilding the program and Fordham's reputation nationally.     

There is good local talent for players, and we should go after them with a vengeance to get the best of the best and protect our turf. But not be afraid to look far and wide if we must to fill holes in the team.

And as for coaching talent that needs to be a national search, but a rational one.   

I do agree that McShane likely took a heated call from the A10 to shape up or ship out, and that he was getting a lot of heat about fixing the problem and so he threw money at it.     

We need a new AD.   The new AD can manage the new arena, fixing the schedule, and all sorts of problems in Fordham Athletics Dept.    The present day duo of ratman and noggin ain't cutting it.

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« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2010, 05:42:06 pm »

exram, you couldn't be more wrong.  #1 doesn't explain our complete inepitude.  #2 is nonsense; what rivalries could we have built with our ineptitude; if you want IC and MC rivalries, play them OOC.  #3 doesn't necessarily follow and doesn't have to be a bad thing; any hire is risky.  #4 is the best one, though.  As if other schools and interested folks need this board to know Fordham's history and shortcomings.  I know plenty of folks in the college bball scene, especially tri-state, and they never turn to the negativity on this board when assessing FU.  They know most of the failures better than most people on here.

The lack of success lies in the negative energy about our shortcomings?!?  Hello, is that you, Grank?  Costello?
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« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2010, 07:18:25 pm »

It is hard to develop rivalries when you stink and don't have much chance of beating your opponent.  Rivalries develop when two teams play each other every year with wins and losses on both sides, each team having a chance to beat each other.

We could have plenty of rivalries in the A-10 if we could beat some of these teams.  In particular, Rhode Island (the other RAMS), Massachusetts, St. Bonaventure (whom we are probably closest to geographically than any other A-10 team), St. Josephs and LaSalle (old MAAC rival).  It is hard to have enthusiasm build playing against a patsy.
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« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2010, 08:21:06 pm »

To say we have no rivalries is false. We've had one with the Bonnies for years, ever since Bev and his teammates started beating them over a decade ago. We are not the Bonnies patsies. They may sweep us this year (maybe), but we split last year and swept them for several years prior to that. Check it out.

Plus, we are not closest geographically to St. Bonaventure. I know, b/c I've driven up there many times from the Bronx. They're about 360 miles from our campus. NYS is bigger than you think. Rhody is closer, GW is closer, and Philly is (obviously) much, much closer.

Come to RHG next Wednesday night and you will see a rivalry that has been in place for years.  It may be a bottom-feeders type of rivalry, but it is a rivalry just the same.


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« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2010, 01:34:11 am »

To say we have no rivalries is false. We've had one with the Bonnies for years, ever since Bev and his teammates started beating them over a decade ago. We are not the Bonnies patsies. They may sweep us this year (maybe), but we split last year and swept them for several years prior to that. Check it out.

Plus, we are not closest geographically to St. Bonaventure. I know, b/c I've driven up there many times from the Bronx. They're about 360 miles from our campus. NYS is bigger than you think. Rhody is closer, GW is closer, and Philly is (obviously) much, much closer.

Come to RHG next Wednesday night and you will see a rivalry that has been in place for years.  It may be a bottom-feeders type of rivalry, but it is a rivalry just the same.

Actually, I looked up the distances to St. Bonaventure (according to Map Quest) from all the A-10 schools as follows in order of "closeness":

Duquesne                      218.77
George Washington         325.84
St. Joseph's                   347.59
La Salle                         347.79
Fordham                        351.22
Temple                          353.25
Dayton                          402.29
UMASS                          406.72
Richmond                       416.72
Xavier                           432.57
Rhode Island                   496.96
Charlotte                        664.32
St. Louis                        747.30

Surprisingly, most A-10 schools are pretty much the same distance (within 100 miles or so) from St. Bonaventure except for Duquesne and the two end ones.

You're right St. Bonaventure is somewhat of a rivalry and we have beaten them in the past, but they are sort of the exception for us in the A-10.

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« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2010, 06:58:53 am »

If anyone thinks the negativity on this of board does not have an effect, they are just fooling themselves.  Only people on this board would see the down side to us increasing our budget.  In any profession, this type of attitude would get you fired or with few clients.  In the USN you may have a crew member "missing at sea" as a result. 

Now for some clarity on the insights I offered (1) the MAAC is a better fit because we have more in common with its' members, religious background, athletic history, geographics, and a consciousness that academics comes first. (2)  A big time coach, with complete control, is just not going to happen again - and shouldn't.  We need a hungry young coach who sees Fordham as an opportunity to gain a reputation, who will have to settle recruiting outside of NYC.  HS coaches ARE telling kids to get away from NYC and the megative influences that surround them from their neighborhoods - that is a fact  (3) A modest new facility would help, but many programs (i.e. St. Joe's before their renevation) did find success with a small bathroomless facility.  Stop complaining about it, because we are stuck with it - unless someone is writing a check. 
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« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2010, 08:00:45 am »

The MAAC schools are insular regional schools . Fordham is  a National University.
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« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2010, 08:03:23 am »

The MAAC schools are insular regional schools . Fordham is  a National University.

For basketball purposes they are national uniiversities compared to us.
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« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2010, 09:16:21 am »

The MAAC schools are insular regional schools . Fordham is  a National University.

So? The ball is round and inflated to 9 pounds.  They're playing the same game as we are and most of them more successfully. 
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« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2010, 09:32:07 am »

The MAAC is composed of small colleges with few or no graduate offerings and, typically, much lower enrollments than Fordham. As for the stress on academics, nobody is ever going to confuse St. Peter's and Iona with Harvard and Yale. They're talking 5 or maybe 6 NCAA bids for the A-10 this year. If we can strengthen our program and compete in the A-10 (and, face it, if much smaller schools like St. Joe's and St. Bona's can do it, so can we), the upside is tremendous. The MAAC's a middle-of-the-pack one bid league. Better to pick and choose them for opponents in the OOC schedule, rather to join the league.
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« Reply #25 on: February 20, 2010, 10:07:35 am »

Grank alert!    Haaahaaa.     Seriously.   Too funny.   Whatever.

exram I think you are perhaps confusing the concepts of constructive criticism and motivational change with "negativity."      Negativity means giving up, loserdom, do-nothing, roll-over and die.    This board is ANYTHING but that, except after a bad game for a few hours when people threaten to rip up their tickets.     We are critical and we are trying to make constructive suggestions on hiring, firing and facilities.   

Telling us to "just deal with it" is a classic Fordham Drag kind of response.   The status quo ante of shrugging shouldlers and sticking your chin out.     Not the kind of response that brings about positive change.

You may not like the changes we are suggesting.   Fine.   Your opinion.   

The fact remains, that we need to get rid of Grank.  We need to also vastly improve the facilities, concessions and bathrooms, and we need to fix the schedule.  We need to hire a coaching STAFF that can recruit, do x's and o's, knows how to coach DURING a game, and gets these players motivated to show up and play 40 minutes of basketball every single game.   Not some games and then take 3 games off.    EVERY GAME.   

We aren't spinning more money as a negative.   We are saying throwing good money after bad is a poor excuse for change.  More money alone won't do it.  We need to get rid of Grank. We need new facilities and new coaches and we need a complete restructuring the Athletic Department.

We are about POSITIVE change.    But that also means showing up to the podium and admitting where the mistakes have been, what needs to be addressed and then getting on with it.   

Suggesting that negativity gets people fired and gets sailors thrown overboard at night, is really an ugly epithet.    Who needs to be fired is Grank.    Who needs to be thrown overboard is Grank.   

Grank has been in control for 25 years and has driven Fordham Athletics into the abyss.  THAT is what gets people fired in corporations and THAT is what gets people thrown overboard.   

This is a public revolt against the entrenched rulers of the Fordham Fiefdom.     Aux Armes! O Citoyens!  Formez nos Battailons!   

In other words: OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!
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« Reply #26 on: February 20, 2010, 10:40:55 am »

... (2)  A big time coach, with complete control, is just not going to happen again - and shouldn't.  We need a hungry young coach who sees Fordham as an opportunity to gain a reputation, who will have to settle recruiting outside of NYC.  HS coaches ARE telling kids to get away from NYC and the megative influences that surround them from their neighborhoods - that is a fact 

Wasn't there just a link in another thread about the HC from Christ the King saying that he new $$ commitment is going to make him consider recommending Fordham to his kids for the first time? 

Also, doesn't St. John's, Manhattan and even Iona & Hofstra (not necessarily NYC but close enough) recruit a bunch of NYC talent to their schools? 
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« Reply #27 on: February 20, 2010, 11:07:13 am »

PA Ram - this guy has no clue.  He's wildly inconsistent and blinded by the obvious.
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« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2010, 11:40:03 am »

PA Ram - this guy has no clue.  He's wildly inconsistent and blinded by the obvious.

Which is just further evidence its Grank!   LOL.    We are all allowed to have an opinion and express it here.   I am glad that some local HS talent is reconsidering Fordham.    I want Fordham to be in a position to offer the best of the best from around the country and to have kids falling all over themselves to be noticed here.    The more competition for athletic scholarships the better the quality of recruits we get.   

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« Reply #29 on: February 20, 2010, 01:00:05 pm »

(3) A modest new facility would help, but many programs (i.e. St. Joe's before their renevation) did find success with a small bathroomless facility.  Stop complaining about it, because we are stuck with it - unless someone is writing a check. 

Two points.  St. Joe's had bathrooms, proper ticket windows and concessions *before* the renovation.  That "unless someone is writing a check" is one of Frank's favorite lines.  Amazing!
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