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Title: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: greenwood on December 03, 2017, 10:14:43 am
The Crimson are 2-0 versus the A10 and 1-6 otherwise. They have been wildly inconsistent, from game to game as well as within a game.  The general exception has been soph guard Bryce Aiken, who is quick, strong, and creative.  6í9Ē soph Chris Lewis is a developing star.  However, they have struggled to find a reliable 3rd option. 6í7Ē soph Seth Towns went for 25 against Kentucky, canning 6 3s, but has been invisible in some of their losses. A player to keep an eye on is 6í3Ē frosh Rio Haskett, who hasnít broken out yet but came in heralded with offers from Cincinnati, Virginia Tech, and VCU. Harvard has no seniors in their rotation.

Despite a strong performance from downtown against Kentucky, Harvard is still under 30% behind the arc for the year, and they average about 23 attempts.  Will be interesting to see if they pare down the 3s against us and switch from their usual drive and dish to drive and draw contact. Defensively, expect a lot of zone collapsing on Slanina, and the occasional trap. Harvard has the talent to pound us by double digits, but they havenít put it all together yet. We are their 5th road game in a row, and they lack a strong secondary ballhandler to Aiken, both which work in our favor. Harvard -3 seems a fair line, I expect they cover but if we have unusual success from 3 this one could be quite entertaining.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: 85 on December 03, 2017, 10:28:06 am
Good preview.

They are young team.  Had good stretches and then horrible stretches yesterday...but then again, who doesnt have horrible stretches versus Kentucky.



Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: pjd on December 03, 2017, 10:56:27 am
http://www.espn.com/watch/player?id=3226323


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: RoRam on December 03, 2017, 12:57:48 pm
McShane gonna be courtside for this one.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: PeterMartin08 on December 03, 2017, 02:02:48 pm
McShane gonna be courtside for this one.

Yes, for twenty minutes.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: RAM71 on December 03, 2017, 02:07:18 pm
Yes, for twenty minutes.

Exactly. Court side or in the balcony on the McGinley side on his email?   


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: vinnys on December 03, 2017, 06:08:09 pm
Harvard going from Rupp Arena to RHG     how will they handle the culture shock




Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: 123456789 on December 03, 2017, 06:16:33 pm
Believe it or not, this is actually a very winnable game. While they gave Kentucky a game, they also lost to Manhattan. I had this down as a loss in my preseason prediction, but if we can stay out of the 20s in 3pt% and force turnovers like they're vulnerable to, while a nice win, would not be a gigantic upset.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: PeterMartin08 on December 03, 2017, 07:57:58 pm
Greenwood provided a great preview, but I think the projected line is a bit short. It'll be more than -3, IMO.
I thought we would be -4.5 on Manhattan, we were 4.5. I think Harvard will be in that ballpark, probably -5. (I still can't believe we just went down to the wire with Maine, at RHG, in overtime.)

A victory would mean Evans and/or Raut get it done on Wednesday night. (in addition to JC/Slanina).
I wouldn't count on it.

Harvard 66
Fordham 58


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: JohnG92 on December 03, 2017, 08:53:03 pm
Exactly. Court side or in the balcony on the McGinley side on his email?   

there is a university president I follow who sits with the students when he attends sporting events.  What a concept!


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: John on December 04, 2017, 12:14:28 am
there is a university president I follow who sits with the students when he attends sporting events.  What a concept!

Considering what we charge students, could we vouch for Fr. McShane's safety?


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: 85 on December 04, 2017, 07:04:07 am
Greenwood provided a great preview, but I think the projected line is a bit short. It'll be more than -3, IMO.
I thought we would be -4.5 on Manhattan, we were 4.5. I think Harvard will be in that ballpark, probably -5. (I still can't believe we just went down to the wire with Maine, at RHG, in overtime.)

A victory would mean Evans and/or Raut get it done on Wednesday night. (in addition to JC/Slanina).
I wouldn't count on it.

Harvard 66
Fordham 58

Agreed. This will be a tough one.

Haaaavaad 59    Rams 53


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: VTRAM on December 04, 2017, 08:50:30 am
McShane gonna be courtside for this one.

Nope it is the same day as the President's Christmas reception in Hartford so he will be at the Goodwin hotel. I am deciding between the two and probably will punish myself by sitting in front of the computer.  ???

I am sure Mcshane is not happy with having to miss this game out of all the games.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: VTRAM on December 04, 2017, 08:52:07 am
All I know is if we are going to win we need both Tre Evans and Perris Hicks to play well.  >:D


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: 85 on December 04, 2017, 08:55:58 am
McShane gonna be courtside for this one.

Yes he will be the guy in the Harvard cap.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: Rich93 on December 04, 2017, 10:48:01 am
Yes he will be the guy in the Harvard cap.

Golf clap.

Pomeroy has Harvard winning 67-66 giving us a 47% chance of winning.  So he has it as a coin toss.  I think line opens Harvard -2. 


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: Vooter on December 04, 2017, 11:03:29 am
McShane gonna be courtside for this one.

Maybe we can join the Ivy League...  ::)


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: Scott W 86 on December 04, 2017, 02:01:00 pm
Maybe we can join the Ivy League...  ::)

booolah, booolah!

McShane wants us in tweed uniforms. 


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: vinnys on December 04, 2017, 02:21:42 pm
Compughterratings.com has us winning by 4   and has Duquesne and Richmond ranked lower than us in the A10 at this point


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: SkipPass71 on December 04, 2017, 06:07:23 pm
Agreed. This will be a tough one.

Haaaavaad 59    Rams 53


As yes, but where to paaaaaaaak the caaaaaaaaaah 85?

This will be the CHOWDA CHALLENGE:  We win, they provide some of that great New England stuff.  They win, we pony-up with the Manhattan variety or perhaps a Bronx variation on same.

Winnable game?  Indeed, but we MUST play better!

Fun video bit on the screen introduced at the Maine game.  In it, one of our "International players" points to common basketball terminology in his native tongue (on a white board) and the American born Rams player tries to match it to the English term and pronounce it.  It may be very funny, but who knows, you see, for a country that has landed several folks on the moon and where Sandra Bullock is able to return home safely from her space adventure, we STILL can't get an intelligible PA system in the historic RHG!!

Speaking of those international players, the video board also noted that they comprise about half of our roster.  In the past, a common lament was why can't we get some of the Bronx ballers and other Metro area hoops stars to stay and play locally?  Now it would appear that as for the Rams, we are looking for the next "Dirk" or "Manu" rather than the next "Smush" or "Scootchie."  I'm not a huge stat guy, but when I looked it up, of the NCAA players who got to dance in last year's tournament, somewhere around 11% were of the international variety.  Not sure what this means, just an observation.

When TP's Rams downed Harvard in 2012, I think it was the Post that cleverly headlined:  Fordham teaches Harvard a lesson!  Hopefully, school's in session again on Wednesday night!  Go Rams.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: ram it 66 on December 05, 2017, 12:46:13 am
Golf clap.

Pomeroy has Harvard winning 67-66 giving us a 47% chance of winning.  So he has it as a coin toss.  I think line opens Harvard -2. 

Sagarin also  mhas Harvard (2-6) as 2 point favs.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: Vinseiro2 on December 05, 2017, 11:03:43 am
Now it would appear that as for the Rams, we are looking for the next "Dirk" or "Manu" rather than the next "Smush" or "Scootchie." 

   Much better odds of getting the next "Smush" than the next "Dirk".


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: ace93 on December 05, 2017, 11:33:34 am
   Much better odds of getting the next "Smush" than the next "Dirk".

How about the next Domantas Sabonis?


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: pjd on December 05, 2017, 12:39:31 pm
hope next to Snap out of Slump - Tre Evans - Big!!!


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: DamnRam on December 05, 2017, 01:26:50 pm
This will be the CHOWDA CHALLENGE:  We win, they provide some of that great New England stuff.  They win, we pony-up with the Manhattan variety or perhaps a Bronx variation on same.

Clam chowder from the Bronx?  Is that made with tainted clams harvested illegally from the polluted mudflats of the Bronx shoreline?


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: PeterMartin08 on December 05, 2017, 01:40:57 pm
Opening Harvard -1.5. McShane is moving the line.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: Scott W 86 on December 05, 2017, 02:55:46 pm
Opening Harvard -1.5. McShane is moving the line.

LOL ... he wagered the floor fund, double or nothing.

That's called a win either way.  No more floor controversy, or the money is made.  Brilliant Jesuit.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: Rich93 on December 06, 2017, 07:44:10 am
Line moves to -1.  I am surprised it went down not up. 


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: 85 on December 06, 2017, 08:42:10 am
hope next to Snap out of Slump - Tre Evans - Big!!!

In my opinion the way you get him to snap out of his shooting funk, is let him freelance a bit. Stop the forced, flat footed 3's. Let him take it to hoop a couple of times and let him only take a 3 as it naturally flows in the game. These standing on the arc threes at the end of the shot clock are never going in.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: Rich93 on December 06, 2017, 10:31:28 am
Evans had numerous in rhythm open threes and literally missed them all.  Heís taken the ball to the basket and not finished most of the time.  His offensive woes have nothing to do with the system.  Very concerning he looks over matched right now.  Maybe he adjusts as the season goes on but other than the ets game where he got to the line 10 times his offense has been atrocious.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: PeterMartin08 on December 06, 2017, 10:34:20 am
Evans had numerous in rhythm open threes and literally missed them all.  Heís taken the ball to the basket and not finished most of the time.  His offensive woes have nothing to do with the system.  Very concerning he looks over matched right now.  Maybe he adjusts as the season goes on but other than the ets game where he got to the line 10 times his offense has been atrocious.

but...as 85, pointed out, nice haircut - and that is just as important for social media purposes in 2018.

I'm confident he will turn it around, three more shares of tre.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: 85 on December 06, 2017, 10:37:40 am
Kind of an ironic first name.

I tend to agree that he simply has to snap out of it at some point but it is a bit mind boggling. 0-17. You figure you might just get a friendly rim and bounce on one of them. I like many, are expecting some breakout game where he goes 8-10 and hits 5 free throws...we shall see.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: kidfromny on December 06, 2017, 10:50:20 am
In my opinion the way you get him to snap out of his shooting funk, is let him freelance a bit. Stop the forced, flat footed 3's. Let him take it to hoop a couple of times and let him only take a 3 as it naturally flows in the game. These standing on the arc threes at the end of the shot clock are never going in.

They are encouraged to take the 3 though. That's the shot they're told to take.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: greenwood on December 06, 2017, 11:00:23 am
Evans had numerous in rhythm open threes and literally missed them all.  Heís taken the ball to the basket and not finished most of the time.  His offensive woes have nothing to do with the system.  Very concerning he looks over matched right now.  Maybe he adjusts as the season goes on but other than the ets game where he got to the line 10 times his offense has been atrocious.

Atrocious shooting, but he does have a 2:1 assist to turnover ratio.  So does Hicks (invoking the equal time clause)


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: drunkle on December 06, 2017, 11:22:13 am
In my opinion the way you get him to snap out of his shooting funk, is let him freelance a bit. Stop the forced, flat footed 3's. Let him take it to hoop a couple of times and let him only take a 3 as it naturally flows in the game. These standing on the arc threes at the end of the shot clock are never going in.

His usage rate (estimate of % of team's plays used while on the floor) was way down last game.  Around 8%, whereas in the prior game it was high, in the mid-20s, and he got to the line.  He definitely seemed tentative.

When UNC played Michigan, Roy Williams talked about Michigan's offensive efficiency and low tempo.  Michigan is 349th in tempo but have the 38th highest offensive efficiency.  Of course Coach JN worked under Beilein.  Williams said it is not so much that Michigan milks the clock just to shoot at the last second, but that they hunt for a good shot and don't settle (Michigan promptly went out and, after scoring well early going down low to Wagner, started chucking and missing 3s as the Heels upped the tempo).    But that's true.  The point shouldn't be simply to milk the clock, absent a late lead.  You want to be deliberate, but take the efficient shot that presents itself.

We have actually been pretty good at 2 point FG%.  102nd in Div I.  And that includes against Florida State, which has a good 2 point % defense. Toss out that game and we'd be at 54.9%, or 60th.  We have been above 50% from 2 against everyone except LIU (surprisingly) and Florida State.

We were pretty effective driving or going inside last game.  It may be that we are using the 3 too late and not in rhythm.

Just as an aside, I think as noted in the game thread there were a couple of times Slanina got it down low and couldn't get a handle or too far under.  These happened on drives, one by Chartouny, where it looked like the driver should have shot and not tried a close in pass to a big.  But we seemed to get more aggressive late and our guards made some layups.  After halftime we made 2 3 point jumpers (JC and PS), 2 mid range jumpers (PS and PH), and 9 layups (1 PS, 1 PH, 1 CH, 3 WT, 3 JC).  One layup (and 1) by JC was off a steal.  One other layup (and 1) by JC was off a D rebound and coast to coast.  WT also had a d rebound and coast to coast.  

One conundrum is our tempo is low for the defense we play.  Most teams that force high turnovers have high tempo games.  West Virginia a classic example.  We really can't afford to get it up to that speed.

You can be deliberate and have good offensive efficiency.  Michigan as aforesaid. Virginia is dead last in tempo and 39th in efficiency.  Saint Mary's is 346th in tempo and 4th in offensive efficiency.  Notre Dame is 334th in tempo and 10th in efficiency.  Of course most of those teams shoot the 3 well.  Michigan doesn't.  They are at 32.5% against Division I teams.  We've shot worse than that but don't think we really should.  It is what it is, but you may have a point and things might pick up but for the forced shots at the end of the clock.  And god the shot clock violations!

And those low tempo/high efficiency teams usually aren't forcing high turnovers. St. Mary's is low in that metric, Notre Dame and Michigan middling.  Virginia is decent, ranked in the 60s.  But their high defensive rank (#1 per kenpom), is not from forcing turnovers but from the pack-line forcing bad shots.    

A closer match would be a team like Tennessee.  They are 16th in forced turnover%, 36th in offensive efficiency, 128th in tempo.  They shoot lights out from 3, and pretty badly from 2, at 47.2%.  Kansas State actually matches up with our style, as they are at 17th in forced TOV%, and 318th in tempo.  Their 2% is roughly same as ours (sans the Florida State game), but they are at 39% from 3.

Again, this is overkill early in the season.  It is possible to have a hectic D, slow-tempo yet effective offense.  But it is fairly rare.  And we haven't shown we can hit the 3.  And that's an understatement.

Given our 3 volume and the number of attempts, we are 300 in eFG%.  Bad.  La salle is at 291.  Some other semi-decent teams are around us.  Two of the worst are on our schedule.  saint louis is 346th with an eFG% of 42%. Doesn't look like that Virginia Tech win has carried over, and interestingly, Virginia Tech is first in eFG% and has won every other game.  Rutgers is 349th in eFG% at 40.8%.  Ooof.  But their last 3 games have been against Michigan State (#1 in lowest opponent eFG%, and they just completely shutdown UNC's offense as well), Florida St (#15 in opp eFG%) and Minnesota (#56).

Harvard's tempo is 84th.  Similar to Tulane at 82nd.  Their opponent eFG% is 225th at 52.4%.  Their opponent 3 point % is 171st at 34.8%.  Their 2 point % yielded is 245th at 52.6%.  They are 58th in opponent 3 point rate as a % of shots taken.  They are 294th in opponent 2 point FG rate.   So that's ammo for those who say we should take them more inside.  It's been our relative strength and their relative weakness    




Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: 85 on December 06, 2017, 11:27:41 am
They are encouraged to take the 3 though. That's the shot they're told to take.

I know but when 17 in a row don't go down, common sense has to take over.  I think we saw Chartouny take the bull by the horns and go back to his old game.

It is mind boggling that there are so many misses from 3. I understand and to a point agree, that the offensive scheme works to an extent because we are getting a lot of trips where guys do get open looks from 3. So its either change it up or go with the law of averages that these are good solid recruits and eventually this incredible run of poor shooting simply has to end. I get it....but it's tough to watch right now..


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: drunkle on December 06, 2017, 11:34:51 am
Evans had numerous in rhythm open threes and literally missed them all.  Heís taken the ball to the basket and not finished most of the time.  His offensive woes have nothing to do with the system.  Very concerning he looks over matched right now.  Maybe he adjusts as the season goes on but other than the ets game where he got to the line 10 times his offense has been atrocious.

At one point against Manhattan he went in for a layup, and it looked like he was going to almost try to slam it, as he cradled it, but Paulicap came from the weak side and blocked it.  There he just seemed unaware weak-side help was coming.  Missing open 3s may just mean it's snowballed and rattled. 0-17 doesn't make sense given his JC numbers.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: VTRAM on December 06, 2017, 12:20:49 pm
We are way overthinking small sample sizes. I agree some of the numbers are mind boggling but let's see where we net out.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: greenwood on December 06, 2017, 12:48:28 pm
We are way overthinking small sample sizes. I agree some of the numbers are mind boggling but let's see where we net out.

Agreed.  Marcus Stout and Brenton Butler both had longer futility streaks, and maybe Harris too, I think Butler has the record, around 30 clanks in a row.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: 85 on December 06, 2017, 01:03:24 pm
We are next to dead last in the entire country in 3 point shooting percentage.  Its time to take note, especially in an offense that revolves around the 3.

http://www.ncaa.com/stats/basketball-men/d1/current/team/152/p8



Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: PeterMartin08 on December 06, 2017, 01:23:29 pm
We are way overthinking small sample sizes. I agree some of the numbers are mind boggling but let's see where we net out.

Agreed. Talk about on January 6, not December 6. Lets go.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: Vooter on December 06, 2017, 01:52:59 pm
We are next to dead last in the entire country in 3 point shooting percentage.  Its time to take note, especially in an offense that revolves around the 3.

http://www.ncaa.com/stats/basketball-men/d1/current/team/152/p8

And it's really not location, either. Even if you take out the two Jamaica games (which were played under bad lighting conditions and in which we went 9 for 53 (17%) from the 3-pt line), we're still only shooting the three at a 28.6% clip (which would move us from 349th to 330th) at home...


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: VTRAM on December 06, 2017, 02:27:38 pm
Agreed. Talk about on January 6, not December 6. Lets go.

Love the attitude. Tre, Joe, Havsa, Pekarek, and everyone else should forget everything that has happened thus far, shoot the ball with confidence like they have all their life, and knock down some kill shots tonight.

Confidence can change on a dime. You saw flashes of the confidence coming back vs. Maine. Why not tonight for the breakout?


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: drunkle on December 06, 2017, 04:55:47 pm
Love the attitude. Tre, Joe, Havsa, Pekarek, and everyone else should forget everything that has happened thus far, shoot the ball with confidence like they have all their life, and knock down some kill shots tonight.

Confidence can change on a dime. You saw flashes of the confidence coming back vs. Maine. Why not tonight for the breakout?


Looking at the play by play against Maine, somehow I get thirty 3 attempts.  I may have miscounted but in any event: 11 were with 20 seconds or more elapsed on shot clock.  We shot 1-11 on those. 

Only 3 were with 25 or more seconds gone on the clock.  Evans shot one with 3 seconds gone off a JC steal, but missed one with 25 seconds gone and one in OT with 29 seconds gone.  Indeed Hicks missed 3 with 20 seconds or more gone (0-5 overall), Evans 2 (0-3 overall) and Raut 2 (1-6 overall).  And WT missed 1 with 27 seconds gone.  And 3 of these 20-second elapsed misses were the first 3 shots of overtime.  We also had a 30 second violation.

It doesn't seem like we were shot all that many truly desperation 3s.  But it was more frequent that, later in the clock, after 20 seconds up, the ball ended up in the hands of guys playing their 1st few weeks of Division I ball, Hicks, Evans and Raut. After the primary targets (Tavares, Chartouny and Slanina) have been bottled up by the D.  Now I'm thinking Dr. Strangelove's Major Kong: "Goddamnit Goldie, I thought you said you could get me to the primary!"

So Evans took a quick 3 and 2 late 3s for his 3 shots.  Yeah, that doesn't seem optimal, but overall probably not the issue.  He did have 5 boards and no TOs.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: kidfromny on December 06, 2017, 05:14:18 pm
We are next to dead last in the entire country in 3 point shooting percentage.  Its time to take note, especially in an offense that revolves around the 3.

http://www.ncaa.com/stats/basketball-men/d1/current/team/152/p8


This is very concerning. But, one caveat, one of our guys could go off just one game, and I'm sure we would be propelled to a much higher ranking. But that of course is a big IF. Because no one has shown the capability, this year, at least to be that lights out offensive guy. Time will tell.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: SkipPass71 on December 06, 2017, 07:05:29 pm
Hopefully late arriving crowd.  World's a nicer place when your shots drop!  Go Rams


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: southcarolinaram on December 06, 2017, 07:16:47 pm
Bad start. First offensive possession = turnover. First rebound is an offensive one for opponent. First foul shot is a miss.

GO RAMS.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: Belmont Juice on December 06, 2017, 07:39:18 pm
Up 12, then we stopped scoring. Come on Rams. Close out the half back up in double figures. 


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: southcarolinaram on December 06, 2017, 07:46:15 pm
Terrible finish to the half. We need to get better or this will be a loss. We are a lot more talented them.

GO RAMS.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: drunkle on December 06, 2017, 08:26:55 pm
The 3 futility is like nothing I've ever seen.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: Scott W 86 on December 06, 2017, 08:31:56 pm
Anyone else lose livestream at 7:38 left?   Long down time.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: 85 on December 06, 2017, 08:32:27 pm
Tre finally hit a tre.

Jeff is wearing a brown jacket with gray pants. Nice .


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: 85 on December 06, 2017, 08:33:37 pm
Thank goodness for taveras. And the D is rock solid cant deny that.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: ace93 on December 06, 2017, 08:34:06 pm
Thank goodness for taveras. And the D is rock solid cant deny that.

Tavares.

Was that Evansí first 3 of the year?


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: 85 on December 06, 2017, 08:38:10 pm
Great defense, outstanding D


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: 85 on December 06, 2017, 08:44:25 pm
Shot clock violation by Havsa,  utterly mind boggling


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: 85 on December 06, 2017, 08:47:00 pm
Evans epicly sucks. You can not be serious there....are you insane?


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: VTRAM on December 06, 2017, 08:48:35 pm
I give up


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: Hambletonian46 on December 06, 2017, 08:48:47 pm
just unbelievable.

these are scholarship athletes.

can't shoot. 2 digit basketball IQs.

they stink and their only talent is getting the other team to play down to their level of abject incompetence.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: 85 on December 06, 2017, 08:49:02 pm
The nuclear clock is coming


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: kidfromny on December 06, 2017, 08:50:31 pm
I give up

I'm almost there with you


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: The Grinch on December 06, 2017, 08:51:14 pm
Brutal loss.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: Fordham Road on December 06, 2017, 08:51:57 pm
The moron announcers comparing aiken to kyire irving rubbed me the wrong way.
Evans is horrible, so many stupid plays.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: ace93 on December 06, 2017, 08:52:51 pm
I thought the 5 second call was a bit quick, but Evans has to do a lot better there.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: Ram Bam 76 on December 06, 2017, 08:53:22 pm
JN is a terrible game time coach. The worst.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: Belmont Juice on December 06, 2017, 08:53:43 pm
JC terrible shooting, but hits a critical 3 late. Plus 10 rebounds.

The Evans fouls a 3 point shooter. Ouch.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: DCRam on December 06, 2017, 08:53:58 pm
Talk about self-destruction.  :-[


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: 85 on December 06, 2017, 08:54:23 pm
Ok so despite the recent banter, Hicks is 100000000 times better than Evans, put him in the damn game and send Evans back to Okie from the Skokie.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: srndsnd on December 06, 2017, 08:54:30 pm
They got booed off the court and completely deserved it. That was awful. That five second call killed us.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: fholbr on December 06, 2017, 08:54:48 pm
Maybe the search firm will give FU a discount to find two new coaches.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: floridaram94 on December 06, 2017, 08:55:50 pm
Horrible loss
Horrible inbounds play after a timeout
Horrible announcers rooting for Harvard
Season is over if Bunting and Ohams are out for the year
I will not watch or follow the next several games and may be done for the year myself


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: Belmont Juice on December 06, 2017, 08:56:33 pm
Awful. I feel sick bros.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: 85 on December 06, 2017, 08:56:46 pm
(https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.4jNlMYGnrCOqX_rWkapKAwEsDq&pid=15.1&P=0&w=218&h=171)

enough garbage Neubauer. Stop the preposterous 3 pointers and if not....you are done....ka booom!


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: Tolentine on December 06, 2017, 08:57:18 pm
wow terrible


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: Hambletonian46 on December 06, 2017, 08:57:25 pm
i realize you can't bench the entire team, somebody has got to go out there...

but this team has to expect more from themselves. they play like high school kids, making dumb mistakes that a D1 player should not make.

i could care less if they win or lose if they would just play a decent game.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: floridaram94 on December 06, 2017, 08:57:58 pm
The moron announcers comparing aiken to kyire irving rubbed me the wrong way.
Evans is horrible, so many stupid plays.

I forgot about the Kylie comparison.  Unbelievable.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: 85 on December 06, 2017, 09:01:05 pm
Kylie Jenner?


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: PeterMartin08 on December 06, 2017, 09:02:13 pm
Fordhamís basketball world is flat.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: 85 on December 06, 2017, 09:04:29 pm
Havsa dribbling like charlie Chaplin until the clock ran out should get Neubie fired. That was beyond ludicrous.  In fact, I question how that could ever, ever, ever happen.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: Scott W 86 on December 06, 2017, 09:05:10 pm
Can't  shoot
Can't inbound ghe ball
Can't manage the clock
Can't get shots off (as futile as that outcome is)
Can't use his bench
Can't get A10 players

Embarrassed for my school


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: RamFan78 on December 06, 2017, 09:05:14 pm
I give up

Earler today you were the eternal optimist. What happened? Seriously we all share the pain.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: 85 on December 06, 2017, 09:06:20 pm
Havsa has made Fordham a Turkey. Cut him. now.  You can not be that stupid..


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: Belmont Juice on December 06, 2017, 09:10:16 pm
Don't like what I just saw. Don't like it from a coaching standpoint, don't like it from a player standpoint. We're just not good enough, top to bottom.

The A-10 may be down this year, but we're not playing the A-10 in these early games. Short of a miracle, this team will be destroyed in conference.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: RamFan78 on December 06, 2017, 09:10:28 pm
Havsa has made Fordham a Turkey. Cut him. now.  You can not be that stupid..

He should try out for the Harlem Globetrotters.He can dribble all he wants with no sense of purpose.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: VTRAM on December 06, 2017, 09:11:05 pm
Earler today you were the eternal optimist. What happened? Seriously we all share the pain.

One can only take so much. This defies reason. Pecora and Dw teams getting blown out made sense. They sucked and lost. This makes no sense.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: 85 on December 06, 2017, 09:13:00 pm
The Havsa running out the shot clock defies logic or any rational explanation.  I seriously question how that possibly could have happened, you have coaches screaming at you.....that is beyond any possible reason......any.......unless your brain infarcted....call a flipping time out!  Nobody could do that....nobody........it looked like he was trying run out the clock...he does know there is a shot clock...right?


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: RamFan78 on December 06, 2017, 09:17:55 pm
Don't like what I just saw. Don't like it from a coaching standpoint, don't like it from a player standpoint. We're just not good enough, top to bottom.

The A-10 may be down this year, but we're not playing the A-10 in these early games. Short of a miracle, this team will be destroyed in conference.

I think the quality of play has gone way down this year and its not all injury related. Sure we are missing 2 bigs but its the play of some of the ones we expected to step up that has killed us. Sorry Evans is a bust so far and I know JC hit a 3 towards the end but he has been a general disappointment except last game. As for Havsa and Pekarek they are what their numbers say they are.As for coaching at times he leaves you shaking your head but you would think by year 3 we could learn how to inbound the ball. He has yet to recruit anybody that really stands out and if the game coaching is being questioned then it begins to raise issues.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: RamFan78 on December 06, 2017, 09:20:54 pm
One can only take so much. This defies reason. Pecora and Dw teams getting blown out made sense. They sucked and lost. This makes no sense.

Pecora could actually recruit a few players but couldn't coach a lick. Honestly still waiting for JN's star recruit.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: PeterMartin08 on December 06, 2017, 09:26:54 pm
Unfortunately, Slanina is as good as we have - and that's not even close to good enough. He's a starter. He's one piece. You need 6 to compete. 8 to be formidable.

*not to detract from Tavares, who has been good. My point is that Slanina's skill-set is unique. He grades above average within the A10. I'm not sure Tavares is a "plus" starter. Chartouny is not cutting it, he's below average right now. So, 2 players above average. Need 6-8.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: RAM71 on December 06, 2017, 09:30:50 pm
Can we please stop with this we have a good coach stuff? Based on what? Without Rhoomes (a player he supposedly would not want to recruit today), Neubauer is working on his third losing season.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: ace93 on December 06, 2017, 09:32:14 pm
Pecora could actually recruit a few players but couldn't coach a lick. Honestly still waiting for JN's star recruit.

True on all counts. Pecora had too many misses too though. So did DW and so did Hill before him and so did Macarchuk before him. And were it not for our NYC location, I think it would be worse. There is a common denominator, but 85 will have a fit if I bring it up.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: 85 on December 06, 2017, 09:35:53 pm
True on all counts. Pecora had too many misses too though. So did DW and so did Hill before him and so did Macarchuk before him. And were it not for our NYC location, I think it would be worse. There is a common denominator, but 85 will have a fit if I bring it up.

 No facility has anything to do with a guy being so block F stupid to run out the shot clock, he would have kept running too did he think the game was over? I seriously question that sequence, did he think he was running out the game clock? don't we have coaches?


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: kidfromny on December 06, 2017, 09:37:38 pm
Can we please stop with this we have a good coach stuff? Based on what? Without Rhoomes, Neubauer is working on his third losing season.

JN found his short lived success on TP's recruits. If he doesn't land an all-star recruit for next year then he should pack his bags. Up almost 20 points against Manhattan and he's going ballistic on the sideline making subs with 2 seconds to go in the game. Caught with his tail between his legs in this very winnable game during crunch time. Absolutely love the defense schemes he has implemented but offense is putrid. Is there a stat that keeps track of shotclock violations? Keep chucking up prayers, maybe these guys should have a team mass beforehand to pray some of them go in the basket.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: ace93 on December 06, 2017, 09:40:48 pm
No facility has anything to do with a guy being so block F stupid to run out the shot clock, he would have kept running too did he think the game was over? I seriously question that sequence, did he think he was running out the game clock? don't we have coaches?

If you think Havsa sucks, well think about how he would not be here if we could recruit better. And our recruiting has everything to do with facilities. Stop kidding yourself.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: RamFan78 on December 06, 2017, 09:41:17 pm
Can we please stop with this we have a good coach stuff? Based on what? Without Rhoomes, Neubauer is working on his third losing season.

Oh boy now you have done it. Any minute now the forum policeman will be sending you a nasty post telling you to get lost. I made a similar comment a few days ago questioning the coaching and recruiting and was told I should stop watching and stop posting and don't let the door hit me on the way out. Obviously it didn't stop me from doing either. In fact I will be attending my 3rd game this season on Saturday.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: ace93 on December 06, 2017, 09:41:52 pm
JN found his short lived success on TP's recruits. If he doesn't land an all-star recruit for next year then he should pack his bags. Up almost 20 points against Manhattan and he's going ballistic on the sideline making subs with 2 seconds to go in the game. Caught with his tail between his legs in this very winnable game during crunch time. Absolutely love the defense schemes he has implemented but offense is putrid. Is there a stat that keeps track of shotclock violations? Keep chucking up prayers, maybe these guys should have a team mass beforehand to pray some of them go in the basket.

Pack his bags and we bring in whom exactly? Neubauer might not be the ultimate solution, but he is not the problem.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: 85 on December 06, 2017, 09:42:27 pm
If you think Havsa sucks, well think about how he would not be here if we could recruit better. And our recruiting has everything to do with facilities. Stop kidding yourself.

Sucks is not the issue. A 9 year old can see the shot clock and you have 4 coaches to yell at you. That was a bizarre and almost surreal sequence.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: Fish Fry on December 06, 2017, 09:45:24 pm
Can we please stop with this we have a good coach stuff? Based on what? Without Rhoomes, Neubauer is working on his third losing season.
I've been quiet for some time. I'm quiet no more. Agree with RAM71. Once again, somebody tell me how we are better off with this guy than we were with the last guy. One of the pundits here recently wrote that this isn't "Pecora coaching". Maybe not, but these are Pecora results, baby. Enough of this happy horsespit. Year 3 and this sucker is moving backwards. Again. If Neubie is the guy, time for him to start showing it. His teams better find a way to close out these games and he and his staff goddamn well better pick it up on the recruiting trail. Nobody cares how many steals your stupid system creates if you're not winning games. Find some flippin' players.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: ace93 on December 06, 2017, 09:45:31 pm
Sucks is not the issue. A 9 year old can see the shot clock and you have 4 coaches to yell at you. That was a bizarre and almost surreal sequence.

That's one bonehead play that may or may not have decided the outcome of the game. The issue is the overall talent level.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: kidfromny on December 06, 2017, 09:45:35 pm
Pack his bags and we bring in whom exactly? Neubauer might not be the ultimate solution, but he is not the problem.

Problem is we are chucking threes with players incapable of making them. Comes down to talent. Where is it on this team? Majority of our scholly players would likely be walk ons at other programs in our league or at least play like it thus far this season. What saving grace does Jn have when it comes to recruiting? Who's his bright spot there?


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: greenwood on December 06, 2017, 09:46:33 pm
So much to chew on but I only have the energy for one thing. Slanina being out there from 7:30 to 2:30 left in the first half was a travesty. He gave his all the first 12 minutes, give him a 1-2 minute breather and get him right back out there. So what if you then have no one to guard Lewis, he could no longer guard Lewis and he missed 4-5 shots in that span because he had no legs. Horrible.

I give up too.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: RamFan78 on December 06, 2017, 09:48:18 pm
Pack his bags and we bring in whom exactly? Neubauer might not be the ultimate solution, but he is not the problem.
I assume the thought here is that whomever coaches here will never be able to recruit? Correct? If so I tend to agree somewhat but I still think we could do better than some of the recruits JN has brought in in the 3 years. Sorry but when you lose to the Sacred Hearts, Miami of Ohio and a team like Harvard tonight not to mention barely beating Maine then its a bunch of reasons including coaching.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: The Grinch on December 06, 2017, 09:49:06 pm
This program has been in decline for over 25 years.  The students have no interest, the administration has no interest, high school coaches have no interest, the only people who care about this program are about 20-25 die hards most of whom graduated over 30 years ago.  It's the same thing year after year.  


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: ace93 on December 06, 2017, 09:49:26 pm
Problem is we are chucking threes with players incapable of making them. Comes down to talent. Where is it on this team? Majority of our scholly players would likely be walk ons at other programs in our league or at least play like it thus far this season. What saving grace does Jn have when it comes to recruiting? Who's his bright spot there?

I agree on the talent. The point is that it is not going to change with a new coach. We have 4 previous coaches to prove that. Other coaches only did mildly better or it was very short lived.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: ace93 on December 06, 2017, 09:51:30 pm
I assume the thought here is that whomever coaches here will never be able to recruit? Correct? If so I tend to agree somewhat but I still think we could do better than some of the recruits JN has brought in in the 3 years. Sorry but when you lose to the Sacred Hearts, Miami of Ohio and a team like Harvard tonight not to mention barely beating Maine then its a bunch of reasons including coaching.

I don't disagree overall, but I still think he is the best coach we have had since Macarchuk. Not saying much, but why is it that we also have not gotten better coaches apply for the job either?


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: 85 on December 06, 2017, 09:53:27 pm
Where are the coaches in the last minute?


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: kidfromny on December 06, 2017, 09:56:16 pm
Where are the coaches in the last minute?

Choking! And if I were on that bench for the absolutely bogus 5 second call I'm getting myself ejected. Without a doubt.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: ace93 on December 06, 2017, 09:59:32 pm
Choking! And if I were on that bench for the absolutely bogus 5 second call I'm getting myself ejected. Without a doubt.

I said earlier that it seemed like a quick 5. Nobody commented though, probably b/c that was just one blip in a horrible game. That's one thing that has always bugged me about basketball, that 5 second call is too reliant on a human and not a clock.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: PeterMartin08 on December 06, 2017, 10:01:03 pm
I don't disagree overall, but I still think he is the best coach we have had since Macarchuk. Not saying much, but why is it that we also have not gotten better coaches apply for the job either?

Lets go through it for a moment.

Hill - 10 year contract, NBA resume, name recognition, keys to the car and then some. On talent alone, assumption was that we would be respectable (at minimum), with upside as a perennial postseason program. what ensued was unthinkable.

DW - NC State tournament history, Diversity, Wagner tournament appearance, hot name, apparently had no idea what was behind the curtain.

Pecora - Local guy, Hofstra tournament resume, prime of coaching career, NY/NYC recruiting contacts. logical that he would have success.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: RamFan78 on December 06, 2017, 10:02:49 pm
I don't disagree overall, but I still think he is the best coach we have had since Macarchuk. Not saying much, but why is it that we also have not gotten better coaches apply for the job either?

Fair Point and yes agree not counting DP in 1970 best coaches I have witnessed were Penders and Nick. It is just frustrating to see some of the secondary schools in this area are getting better talent even though we play in a better conference facilities aside.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: ace93 on December 06, 2017, 10:12:39 pm
Fair Point and yes agree not counting DP in 1970 best coaches I have witnessed were Penders and Nick. It is just frustrating to see some of the secondary schools in this area are getting better talent even though we play in a better conference facilities aside.

Why would those recruits come here if they are going to play and practice in similar facilities and have a better chance at winning games?

BTW, despite how pissed I am right now, I still think we will have some exciting victories as the season progresses.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: Richie68 on December 06, 2017, 10:14:33 pm
I thought the 5 second call was a bit quick, but Evans has to do a lot better there.

Evans is absolutely the worst player to have inbounding the ball at the end.  I have watched him inbound the ball all season and he always just gets it in before the 5 count.  I don't know why.  However, I agree with you that the count was too fast in this instance and the call wrong.

Another bonehead decision was getting the ball to Havsa with 12 seconds out of bound on the clock near the end.  I think it was when we had a one point lead under a minute.  I just knew he was going to dribble and dribble and dribble and we ended up with a terrible shot off in the last second at the end with this mindless dribbling.

This is really getting hard to watch and stomach, game in and game out.  We are playing really bad teams and we lose to most of them or beat them by a whisker.  Our shooters are terrible and people keep saying it's early, wait til January or February.  It's not going to happen folks.  We are not 349 out of 351 on 3 point percentage because of a "bad streak".  We stink at shooting 3 pointers.  Period.

Now if you look at our free throw shooting, that's another joke.  40% on Tavares's 2 out of 5 from the line.  No other player got to the line because Tavares is the only one who really drives (unless you want to count Chartouny who is chucking up layups which don't even touch the rim).  Tavares is a nice all around player but can't hit his free throws for some reason.
 
We lost this game in the final minute having never been behind til the last few seconds.  Exasperating & Inexcusable.  Crowd down to 1,012.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: fholbr on December 06, 2017, 10:17:26 pm
I think our best chance to improve is to hire an assistant from a strong program. Someone who can put some life in this program and understands the importance of recruiting.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: Bay Ridge on December 06, 2017, 10:20:42 pm
Richie - that was the announced crowd that includes season ticket no shows. Looked more like 800 at best


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: ace93 on December 06, 2017, 10:21:35 pm
I think our best chance to improve is to hire an assistant from a strong program. Someone who can put some life in this program and understands the importance of recruiting.

LOL. You think that the other coaches we have had did not understand the importance of recruiting? It will only be slightly better with another coach. This coach might not be the answer, but he is not the problem either.

And why would one of these hot assistants want this job?


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: Golden Ram on December 06, 2017, 10:25:01 pm
Please,please...let us not start with the facilities again. Iona and Manhattan have facilities as bad as ours if not worst and yet they manage to get good players.
And......already with the coach.......JN. Knows how to coach,he needs To hire someone who can recruit.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: ace93 on December 06, 2017, 10:28:06 pm
Please,please...let us not start with the facilities again. Iona and Manhattan have facilities as bad as ours if not worst and yet they manage to get good players.
And......already with the coach.......JN. Knows how to coach,he needs To hire someone who can recruit.

I already touched on why they can land those players, and they are only arguably better. That also does not mean they would compete in the A10. Remember that despite how horrible we have been, we have split with Manhattan the last few years. If you don't think the facilities are a huge detriment then you have to get your head out of the sand.

What people need to do is stop thinking that it is not about facilities. It is not just the gym they play in, but practice facility, locker room, etc. The topic might get old, but that does not mean that it is not a true issue.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: Vooter on December 06, 2017, 10:29:13 pm
Hey, guys...just got in! What's goin' on? How'd we do? ;D


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: Vooter on December 06, 2017, 10:32:19 pm
Please,please...let us not start with the facilities again. Iona and Manhattan have facilities as bad as ours if not worst and yet they manage to get good players.

Sorry, but Draddy is actually more fun than the RHG...


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: fholbr on December 06, 2017, 10:34:24 pm
LOL. You think that the other coaches we have had did not understand the importance of recruiting? It will only be slightly better with another coach. This coach might not be the answer, but he is not the problem either.

And why would one of these hot assistants want this job?

Why Not?  Quinnipac hired Dunleavy from Villanova - he has some good recruits coming in and I saw him play Columbia - his team moved the ball around and hit like 14 3ptrs. Would he have rather taken the FU job if it was available? Look at the success the Football program had when it brought in Moorehead an assistant from UCONN.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: ace93 on December 06, 2017, 10:35:31 pm
fholbr, if you see an edit on your post it is b/c I am fixed your misquote.

Why Not?  Quinnipac hired Dunleavy from Villanova - he has some good recruits coming in and I saw him play Columbia - his team moved the ball around and hit like 14 3ptrs. Would he have rather taken the FU job if it was available? Look at the success the Football program had when it brought in Moorehead an assistant from UCONN.

Quinny has better facilities than we do and they are in a conference they can win. With our setup, the best we will do in the A10 is compete to finish in the top half.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: rambacker on December 06, 2017, 10:51:23 pm
I already touched on why they can land those players, and they are only arguably better. That also does not mean they would compete in the A10. Remember that despite how horrible we have been, we have split with Manhattan the last few years. If you don't think the facilities are a huge detriment then you have to get your head out of the sand.

What people need to do is stop thinking that it is not about facilities. It is not just the gym they play in, but practice facility, locker room, etc. The topic might get old, but that does not mean that it is not a true issue.

+1.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: Rich93 on December 06, 2017, 11:39:22 pm
Up 6 with 1:24 left and we foul the three point shooter who happens to be their best free throw shooter.  Then get a quick 5 second call but still our fault because we canít inbound the effing ball.  Then we leave open a 52% three point shooter who up to that point shot was 1-5.  You canít make this up.

Slanina was exhausted end of first half when he bricked 3 shots in a row.  No sub.
Pekarek goes 1-6 from 3 unacceptable to let him shoot that much.
Perris Hicks was atrocious tonight we told you this would happen.
We had enough talent to win this game what we lacked was a good substitution pattern, red light for some of our guys, basketball IQ and guts down the stretch.

Up 6 with 1:24 left we had a 90%  of winning according to ESPN. 


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: DamnRam on December 06, 2017, 11:42:25 pm
Quinny has better facilities than we do and they are in a conference they can win. With our setup, the best we will do in the A10 is compete to finish in the top half.

I have to agree.  We may get a good coach and even crack the top third of the conference, but we would eventually revert to our mean without addressing the facilities problem.  

I actually see the facilities problem as a symptom of the bigger problem, which is the ambiguity on all things athletics.  I won't go too far down this road, so I'll just say that I don't understand what Fordham is hoping to accomplish by trying to compete in the A10 without seeming to have a coherent plan to make their conference commitment and annual investment pay off.  Our facility essentially cancels out our annual investment and effort.  We're kidding ourselves to think otherwise.

What's the plan here?


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: Rich93 on December 06, 2017, 11:46:46 pm
Up 6 minute half left. Not sure the facilities fouled a three point shooter or did not inbound the ball. Effing  stupid for this to be in the this game thread.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: ace93 on December 07, 2017, 12:07:42 am
Up 6 minute half left. Not sure the facilities fouled a three point shooter or did not inbound the ball. Effing  stupid for this to be in the this game thread.

Who gives a crap that it is a game thread. Get players who can play and we are more than up 6 and not in that situation. Additionally if we are ever in that type of situation against a legitimate team, if we have better players they don't commit those atrocities. The only thing that is "effing stupid" is to think that this was an in game issue. It is a roster issue and the roster is weak for very obvious reasons. It is the reason why, with very few exceptions, our roster has been weak for 25 years.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: BuckeyeRAM on December 07, 2017, 12:26:32 am
Can anyone tell me why Coach JN played Havsa 20 minutes tonight and Hicks only 10 minutes and played Pekarek 14 and Raut only 17 minutes????? This makes no sense at all to me!

Hicks and Raut have had some really good games this year and have helped Fordham win some games this year and are a thousand times better than Havsa and Pekarek who are absolutely horrible. I have seen Division 3 players that are way better than Havsa/Pekarek. Pekarek was 1-6 from 3 point range and he is an awful shooter and every time Havsa is in there he over dribbles aimlessly around in circles without a purpose probably because he is terrified to shoot and then he always passes the ball to his team-mates with 1 or 2 seconds left on the shot clock and because of this Fordham gets one shot clock violation after another or has to force a desperation shot on the shot clock buzzer and yet coach JN makes no adjustments. I like Coach JN and how he coaches defensively but this is inexcusable and is mind boggling. Is he talking to and coaching Havsa and his players about this? Fordham was 7-33 from 3 point range tonight which is horrendous and since Fordham is so bad at shooting 3 pointers, why does coach JN continue to gives these guys the green light to keep on shooting them. The definition of this is insanity and he is coaching to Fordham's weaknesses offensively by having the players shooting all of these 3's over and over instead of attacking the basket fearlessly early in the shot clock or pulling up for a 10 foot jumper which Fordham shoots better than a 3.    


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: ace93 on December 07, 2017, 12:37:26 am
Can anyone tell me why Coach JN played Havsa 20 minutes tonight and Hicks only 10 minutes and played Pekarek 14 and Raut only 17 minutes????? This makes no sense at all to me!

I am not sure Pekarek vs. Raut, but for the other, coaches don't like drama around their teams. It's called the reverse mama.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: Rich93 on December 07, 2017, 12:49:20 am
I am not sure Pekarek vs. Raut, but for the other, coaches don't like drama around their teams. It's called the reverse mama.

We said it at the time.  It never ends well for the player.  Letís hope the message was sent and they move on. 


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: John on December 07, 2017, 12:56:10 am
I am not sure Pekarek vs. Raut, but for the other, coaches don't like drama around their teams. It's called the reverse mama.

I agree (as Ace drops the mic and walks away . . . ).

But seriously, there are several games like this every year, and have been every year for the past 25. It's disheartening, and it explains the lack of fan response. Good fans will stick with you through thick or thin, but they expect a little "thick" every now and again. We just haven't had that (Glenn Batemon notwithstanding).  Perhaps it's because there are so few fans, but the Administration does absolutely nothing to excite or engage their fans (hiring security guards to control their movements at games doesn't count).

Yes, a new facility would presumably build some fan excitement. But with the current Athletic Administration in place, I'm not sure. "The fans" or even  the concept of fans, has been missing from this program for a long time. I hate to say it, but the game day experience at Rose Hill this year is not notably different from that when I was an undergrad, decades ago.

I can only imagine how folks working at other Athletic Departments must view their counterparts at Fordham. "You're under NO pressure to put fans in the seats?" "You don't have to do ANY dedicated athletic fundraising?" Must be nice, but of course the Fordham folks are working at a dead-end program.

One almost expects to find the Athletic Department listed in the University Catalogue under the heading "After-School Activities".


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: pjd on December 07, 2017, 06:13:04 am
Evans got called 4 & 3/4 seconds; following the pseudo meeting at Table.  ABOS

Hard games like this can Make a team, they can Break a Team


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: kenman on December 07, 2017, 06:46:47 am
I disagree about Havsa. Can't excuse the clock violation of course, but he had 1 turnover against 4 assists last night. He should have had more assists but he finds guys for wide open shots and they throw up bricks. He seems afraid to shoot. Pekarek definitely is not reluctant to do so.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: Bay Ridge on December 07, 2017, 07:16:05 am
Listen to Neu's post game comments. You'd think we were playing a top 20 team


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: The Grinch on December 07, 2017, 07:35:13 am
I think our best chance to improve is to hire an assistant from a strong program. Someone who can put some life in this program and understands the importance of recruiting.

No good assistant with the hope of moving up the ladder would take the Fordham job.  It's a career killer.  JN is finding that out now.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: PeterMartin08 on December 07, 2017, 07:37:18 am
No good assistant with the hope of moving up the ladder would take the Fordham job.  It's a career killer.  JN is finding that out now.

Stop


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: 85 on December 07, 2017, 07:38:01 am
The positives: Slanina has learned to play effectively without fouling. We continue to play stifling defense.

Its hard to imagine holding a team to 20% 3 point shooting and 47 points and still losing. The D will at least keep us in these games.

What was our timeout situation during Havsa's dancing with the Stars audition and Evans failure to inbound?   Were we out of TOs?  Were they squandered after made baskets again?


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: ace93 on December 07, 2017, 07:49:17 am
The positives: Slanina has learned to play effectively without fouling. We continue to play stifling defense.

Its hard to imagine holding a team to 20% 3 point shooting and 47 points and still losing. The D will at least keep us in these games.

What was our timeout situation during Havsa's dancing with the Stars audition and Evans failure to inbound?   Were we out of TOs?  Were they squandered after made baskets again?

We had one left. Two were used after made baskets. I get that type of use, but at times it kills our momentum and obviously leaves us in need at the end. I know you can't take a timeout into the locker room, but I would prefer to enter the locker room with a timeout in my pocket and a victory.

I would not be shocked if the instructions before that now infamous inbound were to get the ball across court and call a timeout. That might have been in Evans' head and he was hesitant to use it, but he has to also know that the timeout is available there if needed.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: kenman on December 07, 2017, 08:08:02 am
That timeout situation had to have had something to do with Havsa's and Evans' failure to call timeout. When JN called his signature TO after a made basket with more than 12 minutes remaining, everyone knew we only had one remaining.  You'd have to think that some coach reminded the kids about that fact. It was definitely in their heads, IMHO.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: 85 on December 07, 2017, 08:12:02 am
Cant the coach call a TO on in-bounds plays?


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: 85 on December 07, 2017, 08:18:16 am
No good assistant with the hope of moving up the ladder would take the Fordham job.  It's a career killer.  JN is finding that out now.

1. JN was not an assistant who took this job, he was an established mid major head coach.
2. We have not hired an assistant since when? Pecora was a mid major HC, so was DW, Hill was a former NBA HC, Nick was a mid major HC, Penders was an established HC at Columbia....

Calling the Fordham job a career killer for an "assistant" is not accurate and has no meaningful history, if any, to evaluate it. We have never gone that route in the A-10 or even in the MAAC. An assistant making $200K at a Providence or Syracuse takes the Fordham gig for $500K guaranteed for 4 years and it doesn't work out, you think his career is dead?  Now, it might kill the head coaching career for an established mid major coach, like Pecora, that I might agree with, but the assistant route has not been tried and I dont think its the same career killer potential. A good assistant could likely land right back at a top school as an assistant, with a hefty bank roll.

I think many fans are wholly unrealistic about the head coaching opportunities at this level of basketball. and for this kind of $$. Look at how long it took Prioleau to get a head coaching gig. Sometimes, even with great assistants it just never happens.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: ace93 on December 07, 2017, 08:22:59 am
Cant the coach call a TO on in-bounds plays?

Coaches can't call timeout during live play and the inbounds situation is considered live play. There was a proposal to allow that in 2016, but I am not sure it ever passed.
http://www.ncaa.com/news/basketball-men/article/2016-05-18/college-basketball-timeouts-change-recommended-rules

Edit:
It looks like it passed, as the 2017-18 rule states:
Section 14. Timeouts Granted and Charged
Art. 1. A timeout shall be granted and charged after a visual or oral request by a player in .a through .c or by a head coach in .b and .c or the conditions in .d and .e exist:
a. When a player of that team is in control of the ball (this includes throwins and free throws) (Exception: Rule 5-15.1.c.);
b. When the ball is at the disposal of a player of the team entitled to the ball and before it has been released for a throw-in;
c. When the ball is dead;
d. When the appeal for a correctable error or timing, scoring or alternating possession mistake is reviewed and the officialís ruling is not reversed, and
e. When the appeal to review the monitor for a flagrant 2 contact foul, flagrant 1 contact foul, or contact dead ball technical foul does not result in a flagrant contact foul or contact dead ball technical foul being charged.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: 85 on December 07, 2017, 08:25:21 am
Thanks for the clarification. Teammates have to help you out there.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: 85 on December 07, 2017, 08:28:06 am
I am not saying that hiring a top assistant at big school will definitely work but we haven't tried it . The same go get a mid major coach plan, with no upgrade in our infrastructure, is failing again.

The "possibilities" I can see in a big school assistant making it work, short term, are like football. We get a top assistant from a big school. He snags a couple of transfers from his school and then a couple of guys he was recruiting to that school who are either in HS or looking to transfer from somewhere else. You have a transition year with the transfers, then maybe win for 1-2 years with that coach and its rinse repeat. To me, its the only feasible blueprint left,  given the aforementioned issues regarding facilities and infrastructure.

Its not like Neaubauer cant coach. This is probably the best defense I have seen any Fordham team play in 30 years. But we dont have the athletes, that is becoming very clear.

 


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: ace93 on December 07, 2017, 08:37:22 am
Thanks for the clarification. Teammates have to help you out there.

Further clarification/edit above.

I am not saying that hiring a top assistant at big school will definitely work but we haven't tried it . The same go get a mid major coach plan, with no upgrade in our infrastructure, is failing again.

The "possibilities" I can see in a big school assistant making it work, short term, are like football. We get a top assistant from a big school. He snags a couple of transfers from his school and then a couple of guys he was recruiting to that school who are either in HS or looking to transfer from somewhere else. You win for 2-3 years max and its rinse repeat. To me, its the only feasible blueprint left,  given the aforementioned issues regarding facilities and infrastructure.

I agree that it has not been tried, will maybe work for 2-3 years, and then it's rinse-repeat. The one big difference between FCS football and basketball is that in basketball the transfers will need to sit, so it can take longer to show dividends.



Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: 85 on December 07, 2017, 08:40:50 am
Agreed ACE, that's where the new HC would have to snag a couple of 5th year guys for immediate infusion. It's not easy.  It's a crazy game these days but this would appear to be our only viable blueprint remaining that could "maybe" achieve success.

 


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: DamnRam on December 07, 2017, 08:43:08 am
I think the flip side of the facilities issue is that even if we solved that, unless we were all-in on everything else (like Xavier) Fordham will most likely always be a stepping stone school, albeit one that is higher up the staircase.  We will experience more success and on a consistent basis, and we will still occasionally lose coaches and have to rebuild.  The difference is that the rebuilding process will be easier.

Fordham really needs to make a decision on which way they want to go here.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: 85 on December 07, 2017, 08:45:38 am
The stepping stone route makes far more sense. Look at the all-in schools in our conference. VCU lost Shaka Smart. Dayton lost Pernell, Miller, and the guy who went to GaTech.  Xavier lost Thad Matta. Its not like even our top all-in schools can keep their coaches.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: ace93 on December 07, 2017, 08:46:02 am
I think the flip side of the facilities issue is that even if we solved the facilities issue, unless we were all-in on everything else (like Xavier) Fordham will most likely always be a stepping stone school, albeit one that is higher up the staircase.  We will experience more success and on a consistent basis, and we will still occasionally lose coaches and have to rebuild.  The difference is that the rebuilding process will be easier.

Fordham really needs to make a decision on which way they want to go here.

Almost every school in the NCAA is a stepping stone. There are very few destination jobs. In the time they have been in the A10, VCU has lost 2 coaches to moves up in conference. Xavier lost about the same during their time in the A10, perhaps more. If you are properly set up, that is not a bad problem to have b/c it means you are winning.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: 85 on December 07, 2017, 08:48:19 am
Side note, given last night's game we now appear to have the worst 3 point shooting percentage in all of college basketball, 351 teams. .242 puts us dead last.



Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: VTRAM on December 07, 2017, 08:49:58 am
fholbr, if you see an edit on your post it is b/c I am fixed your misquote.

Quinny has better facilities than we do and they are in a conference they can win. With our setup, the best we will do in the A10 is compete to finish in the top half.

This is a very good point. Quinny is a great situation for a coach on the rise. It could be argued that our situation is one of the worst for a coach trying to get to a Power 5 job.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: 85 on December 07, 2017, 08:54:20 am
This is a very good point. Quinny is a great situation for a coach on the rise. It could be argued that our situation is one of the worst for a coach trying to get to a Power 5 job.

True, so you sell what you can to get a top assistant. We can offer some pretty big $$.  I honestly think that you get a top assistant who has a year like Neubie did his first year, and that coach maybe goes 18-13 his second year with an NIT. He either gets a bigger gig in a big conference or a lateral with a school that has better facilities and comittment and he is on his way.  Clawson took a bit of a lateral to Richmond. It can be done. Penders went to Rhode Island first before getting to Texas. But you need the mindset that we are not a 10 year job, that the game is now transient, transfers in and out, 5th year guys, coaches in and out.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: VTRAM on December 07, 2017, 08:57:02 am
Up 6 with 1:24 left and we foul the three point shooter who happens to be their best free throw shooter.  Then get a quick 5 second call but still our fault because we canít inbound the effing ball.  Then we leave open a 52% three point shooter who up to that point shot was 1-5.  You canít make this up.

Slanina was exhausted end of first half when he bricked 3 shots in a row.  No sub.
Pekarek goes 1-6 from 3 unacceptable to let him shoot that much.
Perris Hicks was atrocious tonight we told you this would happen.
We had enough talent to win this game what we lacked was a good substitution pattern, red light for some of our guys, basketball IQ and guts down the stretch.

Up 6 with 1:24 left we had a 90%  of winning according to ESPN. 


Losing a 90%er is becoming a staple. The GW home loss, Mason A-10 game, Miami Ohio, and now this. The Neubauer era looks different if we win 3 of those 4.

The issues are there whether we held on or not. I still think we are more competitive than our previous coaching staffs. Remember those staffs lost these games as well usually by double digits. There are clearly issues but the fact that there is a shred of hope makes it even worse.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: Vooter on December 07, 2017, 09:06:01 am
I think the flip side of the facilities issue is that even if we solved that, unless we were all-in on everything else (like Xavier) Fordham will most likely always be a stepping stone school, albeit one that is higher up the staircase.  We will experience more success and on a consistent basis, and we will still occasionally lose coaches and have to rebuild. The difference is that the rebuilding process will be easier.

Also known as "Being in the MAAC"...just sayin'...


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: 85 on December 07, 2017, 09:10:26 am
Also known as "Being in the MAAC"...just sayin'...

Or another conference. Doesnt have to be the MAAC.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: kidfromny on December 07, 2017, 09:14:22 am
We had one left. Two were used after made baskets. I get that type of use, but at times it kills our momentum and obviously leaves us in need at the end. I know you can't take a timeout into the locker room, but I would prefer to enter the locker room with a timeout in my pocket and a victory.

I would not be shocked if the instructions before that now infamous inbound were to get the ball across court and call a timeout. That might have been in Evans' head and he was hesitant to use it, but he has to also know that the timeout is available there if needed.

At times it kills our momentum? Just not true. Every single time it kills our momentum. And every single time he does it we are very very limited with timeouts during crunch time. Mind baffling.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: 85 on December 07, 2017, 09:15:43 am
In fairness, the announcers have been on this all year, questioning this strategy.

Either way, if we had one, then Evans has to take it.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: Rich93 on December 07, 2017, 09:21:16 am
Losing a 90%er is becoming a staple. The GW home loss, Mason A-10 game, Miami Ohio, and now this. The Neubauer era looks different if we win 3 of those 4.

The issues are there whether we held on or not. I still think we are more competitive than our previous coaching staffs. Remember those staffs lost these games as well usually by double digits. There are clearly issues but the fact that there is a shred of hope makes it even worse.

Think about it: if we close out a game we are up 6 with 1.24 left there is no facilities or coaching discussion.  Not one word.  The narrative is we won ugly against a good team.  But we find a way to lose primarily because our most highly touted recruit sought after by schools in P5 and A-10 fouls a three point shooter and does not inbound the ball.  So here we are 3-5 should be 5-3.  Infuriating. 

At times it kills our momentum? Just not true. Every single time it kills our momentum. And every single time he does it we are very very limited with timeouts during crunch time. Mind baffling.

After one of the made shot timeouts we gave up a wide open drive to the basket.  This game was a disaster by Neubauer.  He can coach but this was a bad game by him. 


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: 85 on December 07, 2017, 09:26:00 am
Think about it: if we close out a game we are up 6 with 1.24 left there is no facilities or coaching discussion.  Not one word.  The narrative is we won ugly against a good team.  But we find a way to lose primarily because our most highly touted recruit sought after by schools in P5 and A-10 fouls a three point shooter and does not inbound the ball.  So here we are 3-5 should be 5-3.  Infuriating. 

Stop making sense.

However, the .242 has to be addressed now.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: ace93 on December 07, 2017, 09:27:44 am
Think about it: if we close out a game we are up 6 with 1.24 left there is no facilities or coaching discussion.  Not one word.  The narrative is we won ugly against a good team.  But we find a way to lose primarily because our most highly touted recruit sought after by schools in P5 and A-10 fouls a three point shooter and does not inbound the ball.  So here we are 3-5 should be 5-3.  Infuriating. 

True. Winning helps one ignore the elephant in the room, but the talent level has been questioned for quite some time and the reason for the lack of talent gets avoided b/c some, myself included, don't want the topic brought up in every thread. I failed at that last night b/c we should have been up by much more at the 1:24 mark and I think that was entirely due to talent.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: ace93 on December 07, 2017, 09:28:28 am
In fairness, the announcers have been on this all year, questioning this strategy.

Either way, if we had one, then Evans has to take it.

In his defense, the call was very quick, but you can't take chances there.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: DamnRam on December 07, 2017, 09:30:20 am
Almost every school in the NCAA is a stepping stone. There are very few destination jobs. In the time they have been in the A10, VCU has lost 2 coaches to moves up in conference. Xavier lost about the same during their time in the A10, perhaps more. If you are properly set up, that is not a bad problem to have b/c it means you are winning.

My point was to what you call the "properly set up".  The reason I mentioned Xavier specifically is because I think of the problem as being about much more than facilities.  I look at the facilities issue as the RESULT of fixing the core problem, and of course a removal of a major impediment causing some of the downstream tactical problems (such as recruiting).  

IMO, this is a strategic problem first and foremost.  I really don't get the sense that Fordham is "all in" on its annual athletics investment.  It feels like something it "also does" as a budgeted student activity and alumni relations activity, but it's not really regarded as an institutionally strategic investment.  Compare that to how Xavier regarded it's athletics investment (and I'm talking long before the Cintas Center).  Night and day.  If you were a student at Xavier 30 years ago, you knew exactly how important basketball success was to the school.  I don't believe you could say the same at Fordham now.

I honestly believe that even if Fordham magically had a new arena dropped on it from heaven tomorrow, Fordham would still struggle to really break out.  We would certainly win more games, but we wouldn't have solved the strategic questions which hold it back from being a consistently winning and competitive program.  I could easily see many nights of a good but not great program playing in an arena that's 2/3 empty.

Okay, back to the actual post-game discussion.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: Rich93 on December 07, 2017, 09:30:53 am
Stop making sense.

However, the .242 has to be addressed now.

I will say we had at least three that were half way down and popped out. They did a better job getting the ball to Slanina in the post but we canít finish around the basket which leads to kick outs and the rest is history.  

I should clarify we would be talking anpbiut Neubauers game coaching last night I am talking about assistants can anyone win etc.  


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: VTRAM on December 07, 2017, 09:37:18 am
Think about it: if we close out a game we are up 6 with 1.24 left there is no facilities or coaching discussion.  Not one word.  The narrative is we won ugly against a good team.  But we find a way to lose primarily because our most highly touted recruit sought after by schools in P5 and A-10 fouls a three point shooter and does not inbound the ball.  So here we are 3-5 should be 5-3.  Infuriating. 

After one of the made shot timeouts we gave up a wide open drive to the basket.  This game was a disaster by Neubauer.  He can coach but this was a bad game by him. 

I was thinking about this last night (it is a sickness) about how narrative changes based on a 1 point difference or a possession here or there. Doesn't really make much sense when you think about it.

The most infuriating thing to me is that we have a built what looks like a VERY GOOD defensive basketball team. In typically Fordham fashion we also seem to have a one of the worst offensive teams in D-1. We can't get to 50 at home. You can't make this stuff up.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: 85 on December 07, 2017, 09:40:12 am
Its vexing. In 30 + years of watching Fordham hoops this may be the very best defensive team I have ever seen. And the numbers bear that out.

Flip side we have an offense predicated on the 3....and we are now dead last in country in 3 point percentage a quarter of the way through season.



Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: Rich93 on December 07, 2017, 09:40:29 am
I was thinking about this last night (it is a sickness) about how narrative changes based on a 1 point difference or a possession here or there. Doesn't really make much sense when you think about it.

The most infuriating thing to me is that we have a built what looks like a VERY GOOD defensive basketball team. In typically Fordham fashion we also seem to have a one of the worst offensive teams in D-1. We can't get to 50 at home. You can't make this stuff up.

Even an untalented team playing on a cracked playground court can score 50 at home.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: VTRAM on December 07, 2017, 09:42:15 am
True. Winning helps one ignore the elephant in the room, but the talent level has been questioned for quite some time and the reason for the lack of talent gets avoided b/c some, myself included, don't want the topic brought up in every thread. I failed at that last night b/c we should have been up by much more at the 1:24 mark and I think that was entirely due to talent.

I agree completely. While winning changes the narrative it does not change the fact that we should have pulled away in the 2nd half with the defense we played and the way Harvard shot. Maybe it is lack of talent, maybe lack of confidence, maybe lack of killer instinct. Something is lacking.

If it is talent we will find out the rest of the year. I was hoping it was more confidence based on past results but with each game that goes by it gets harder and harder to make the case.

On a positive note: I went to the Hartford Christmas reception last night and followed the game on my phone. Very nice event and the Development person mentioned to the crowd that we had 6 point lead at half (I knew that was the beginning of the end). You can say a lot of things about McShane but he is really good at these events. The spiel he does to early action accepted students that he is trying to convince to come is a sight to behold.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: RamFan78 on December 07, 2017, 09:49:08 am
The use of timeouts has been discussed for the last 3 years on this Board. It is a JN trait. Not sure of the logic as to why he takes some of the TOs when he does and then has either 1 or none at the end of games. Same with the inbounds pass. In this case it resulted in a 5 second violation but how often often the last few years have we seen an inbounds play screwed up and in some cases right after a TO. Is it the players, is it the coaching or both?


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: RamFan78 on December 07, 2017, 09:50:41 am
I agree completely. While winning changes the narrative it does not change the fact that we should have pulled away in the 2nd half with the defense we played and the way Harvard shot. Maybe it is lack of talent, maybe lack of confidence, maybe lack of killer instinct. Something is lacking.

If it is talent we will find out the rest of the year. I was hoping it was more confidence based on past results but with each game that goes by it gets harder and harder to make the case.

On a positive note: I went to the Hartford Christmas reception last night and followed the game on my phone. Very nice event and the Development person mentioned to the crowd that we had 6 point lead at half (I knew that was the beginning of the end). You can say a lot of things about McShane but he is really good at these events. The spiel he does to early action accepted students that he is trying to convince to come is a sight to behold.
[/b][/u]

Maybe we should put him in charge of recruiting!!


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: VTRAM on December 07, 2017, 09:51:13 am
Its vexing. In 30 + years of watching Fordham hoops this may be the very best defensive team I have ever seen. And the numbers bear that out.

Flip side we have an offense predicated on the 3....and we are now dead last in country in 3 point percentage a quarter of the way through season.



If we had the 250th best team on offense in the country we would be 5-3.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: 85 on December 07, 2017, 09:53:32 am
The use of timeouts has been discussed for the last 3 years on this Board. It is a JN trait. Not sure of the logic as to why he takes some of the TOs when he does and then has either 1 or none at the end of games. Same with the inbounds pass. In this case it resulted in a 5 second violation but how often often the last few years have we seen an inbounds play screwed up and in some cases right after a TO. Is it the players, is it the coaching or both?

At this level of basketball, the last thing that should be costing you games is a simple in-bounds pass and/or managing your timeouts.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: DamnRam on December 07, 2017, 09:56:13 am
However, the .242 has to be addressed now.

On a positive note, we are not actually dead last in 3pt%.  We're #349, ahead of Little Rock and Coppin St!

Also, we are #4 in steals per game.  Of course, what we do with the ball after we have it is another story....


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: ace93 on December 07, 2017, 09:56:22 am
The use of timeouts has been discussed for the last 3 years on this Board. It is a JN trait. Not sure of the logic as to why he takes some of the TOs when he does and then has either 1 or none at the end of games. Same with the inbounds pass. In this case it resulted in a 5 second violation but how often often the last few years have we seen an inbounds play screwed up and in some cases right after a TO. Is it the players, is it the coaching or both?

It has to be both, but I put it more on the coaching in this case. Have to get creative, as it seems to be costing us at other times and clearly cost us last night.

I somewhat get the logic of the timeouts, but you have not know your personnel too. Know that they are the type that need the additional timeout late.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: 85 on December 07, 2017, 09:58:47 am
On a positive note, we are not actually dead last in 3pt%.  We're #349, ahead of Little Rock and Coppin St!

Also, we are #4 in steals per game.  Of course, what we do with the ball after we have it is another story....

After last night we are dead last.

These games are lifeless, in a dead gym, with less than 1000 fans.  Its moribund right now. 

I just listened to the post game presser. Not one question about the 3 point shooting. These are softballs, questions about the defense which we already know is good and was good. If you are not going to ask anything at all relevant to why we lost, then its a total waste of time.  I also didnt hear him ask about the last sequence with the two turnovers...

read it and weep DR:
https://sports.yahoo.com/ncaab/teams/fao/


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: ram64 on December 07, 2017, 10:14:45 am
True the post game presser was a joke.  No mention of any of the details that cost Fordham the game.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: 85 on December 07, 2017, 10:21:45 am
How do you not ask about what happened in the last 2 possessions?  You dont have to call out the coach, just ask....it is to be expected in a game like that. Geez.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: kidfromny on December 07, 2017, 10:21:56 am
After last night we are dead last.

These games are lifeless, in a dead gym, with less than 1000 fans.  Its moribund right now. 

I just listened to the post game presser. Not one question about the 3 point shooting. These are softballs, questions about the defense which we already know is good and was good. If you are not going to ask anything at all relevant to why we lost, then its a total waste of time.  I also didnt hear him ask about the last sequence with the two turnovers...

read it and weep DR:
https://sports.yahoo.com/ncaab/teams/fao/


I mean are there even any members of the media who actually pose questions during the post game press conference? Has to just be WFUV and News12, correct me if I'm wrong. Wonder if he'll own to these mishaps in some sort of a podcast or w/e it is they're using these days. If there is any actually type of communication between the coach and the fans and donors, not sure if there is any more.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: 85 on December 07, 2017, 10:27:13 am
Yea I think you are right, it was just one guy from WFUV asking softballs. Quite frankly, Neubie had the same answer for every question anyway....we fought and we held Harvard to 47 points.....you could have asked him, he how is the weather outside.....we fought and we held Harvard to 47 points......why the brown jacket with gray slacks.....we fought and we held Harvard to 47 points...

He is a heck of a defensive coach, I will give him that....but we gotta find some offense somewhere....I think you have to give hicks more of a shot now....let him run 35 minutes, see what happens. He clearly is now trying to work it in to Slanina down low so he appears to be modifying the O a bit....but someone has to get hot...


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: Rich93 on December 07, 2017, 10:33:17 am
Crawford runs the defense.  Neubauer has to do something anything to reach out to fans in general.  The two minute video where he talks 30 seconds is useless.  Go on FUV on a Saturday take questions from fans.  He is fun to talk to about basketball but for some reason he avoids engaging on a regular basis.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: ram64 on December 07, 2017, 10:37:36 am
Crawford runs the defense.  Neubauer has to do something anything to reach out to fans in general.  The two minute video where he talks 30 seconds is useless.  Go on FUV on a Saturday take questions from fans.  He is fun to talk to about basketball but for some reason he avoids engaging on a regular basis.

He has stayed away from WFUV like the plague.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: Vinseiro2 on December 07, 2017, 10:39:55 am
   Like most coaches, Coach Neu is stubborn to a fault.  I don't think he's comfortable with the talent he has this year, hence more micromanaging.  He really misses Hawkins.  We have a bunch of guards coming in next year, joining an already guard-heavy squad.  That says something about what the coaches think of our talent.  I was early in dismissing Pekarek and Havsa, but you can tell fairly soon whether a kid has what it takes for this level.  Way more often than not, no amount of "development" at this stage will fix that.  Just gotta move on to the next freshman/transfer.

   I agree 100% with 85 on the assistant route for our coaches.  It's really a no-brainer.  But, that's for another time.  I'm a Neubauer fan, he just needs to up the talent going forward.    


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: DamnRam on December 07, 2017, 10:40:58 am
After last night we are dead last.

These games are lifeless, in a dead gym, with less than 1000 fans.  Its moribund right now. 

I just listened to the post game presser. Not one question about the 3 point shooting. These are softballs, questions about the defense which we already know is good and was good. If you are not going to ask anything at all relevant to why we lost, then its a total waste of time.  I also didnt hear him ask about the last sequence with the two turnovers...

read it and weep DR:
https://sports.yahoo.com/ncaab/teams/fao/


You're right, we now lead the nation in having the lowest 3pt%.  We're #1, we're #1!

But what's important here is that we held Harvard to 47...


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: fholbr on December 07, 2017, 10:43:08 am
Crawford runs the defense.  Neubauer has to do something anything to reach out to fans in general.  The two minute video where he talks 30 seconds is useless.  Go on FUV on a Saturday take questions from fans.  He is fun to talk to about basketball but for some reason he avoids engaging on a regular basis.

I agree that JN does not reach out to fans. I really don't feel he has a connection to the school. Pecora despite all his coaching issues was on FUV almost every week, he talked up the school in public. On twitter I see dialogue between the different FU sports - for example, a lot of the teams and coaches were cheering on men's soccer on Twitter - I don't think I saw anything from JN.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: 71 on December 07, 2017, 10:43:31 am
I did not see most of the game, but (for karmic reasons that probably have to do with all the bad things I have done in my life) I did tune in to see the Havsa dribbling exhibition and the Evans vapor lock.  A couple of questions: in both instances why doesn't Chartouny have the ball in his hands? I know he's been a season long funk on offense but he's supposed to be the leader on the team.  And, how in the name of all that is good and holy do you only go to the line 5 times at home?

And I know there are plenty of valid questions of how JN handled things last night, but I think that the players have to make plays at the end.  And these aren't plays of the spectacular variety, just dribble with a purpose to the basket/inbound the basketball. These are fundamental plays that weren't executed, not coaching errors.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: John on December 07, 2017, 10:48:55 am
You're right, we now lead the nation in having the lowest 3pt%.  We're #1, we're #1!

But what's important here is that we held Harvard to 47...

Yes, 47-point games are that fast-paced, exciting brand of basketball that fans like to see.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: Rich93 on December 07, 2017, 10:50:27 am
Neubauer absolutely congratulated soccer on twitter during their run.  But truthfully that is easy and far short of what has to happen.   Go on FUV. I dont understand his reluctance if you are a basketball fan he is great to listen to.  

Yes, 47-point games are that fast-paced, exciting brand of basketball that fans like to see.

If you win 50-47 it becomes a source of pride ask Virginia.  You lose those games then you get this thread. 


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: VTRAM on December 07, 2017, 10:51:31 am
I did not see most of the game, but (for karmic reasons that probably have to do with all the bad things I have done in my life) I did tune in to see the Havsa dribbling exhibition and the Evans vapor lock.  A couple of questions: in both instances why doesn't Chartouny have the ball in his hands? I know he's been a season long funk on offense but he's supposed to be the leader on the team.  And, how in the name of all that is good and holy do you only go to the line 5 times at home?

And I know there are plenty of valid questions of how JN handled things last night, but I think that the players have to make plays at the end.  And these aren't plays of the spectacular variety, just dribble with a purpose to the basket/inbound the basketball. These are fundamental plays that weren't executed, not coaching errors.

Very good point. JC and Taveres need to demand the ball in these situations. You are Seniors. Act like it. Mandell Thomas would have demanded the ball and knocked down 2 FTs.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: Vinseiro2 on December 07, 2017, 10:59:52 am
 A couple of questions: in both instances why doesn't Chartouny have the ball in his hands? I know he's been a season long funk on offense but he's supposed to be the leader on the team.  And, how in the name of all that is good and holy do you only go to the line 5 times at home?

   I was concerned about JC being off the ball with this group this season.  I think there's something to that.  That's an easy change going forward, if the coaches see it the same way.

   I'm surprised that Coach Neu doesn't value the FT more.  It's (should be?) a high % shot in line with his thinking.  I think he's afraid of pushing the action, not getting the foul call, and having the opponent racing down the court before our defense is set.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: DamnRam on December 07, 2017, 11:09:59 am
  I'm surprised that Coach Neu doesn't value the FT more.  It's (should be?) a high % shot in line with his thinking.  I think he's afraid of pushing the action, not getting the foul call, and having the opponent racing down the court before our defense is set.

Good point.  Harvard went 100% (7-7) on FT in the 2nd half, we went 50% (2-4).  I know 3's are the big problem, but since that didn't happen had Tavares just made the other two FT's we could have saved this in OT.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: VTRAM on December 07, 2017, 11:23:55 am
Good point.  Harvard went 100% (7-7) on FT in the 2nd half, we went 50% (2-4).  I know 3's are the big problem, but since that didn't happen had Tavares just made the other two FT's we could have saved this in OT.

All shooting is the problem.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: kidfromny on December 07, 2017, 11:40:26 am
Crawford runs the defense.  Neubauer has to do something anything to reach out to fans in general.  The two minute video where he talks 30 seconds is useless.  Go on FUV on a Saturday take questions from fans.  He is fun to talk to about basketball but for some reason he avoids engaging on a regular basis.

I like Crawford. Plus he actually does small things to engage with fans and supporters. Can't say he's not trying or doing his part. Seems to bring positive energy to one of the dullest group of players in America.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: DamnRam on December 07, 2017, 11:46:02 am
All shooting is the problem.

My focus was narrowly on the FT question, however you are correct of course.  It's just a subset of the larger shooting problem, and we shouldn't be counting on FT's to win most games.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: LXRF on December 07, 2017, 12:05:02 pm
It was one of the worst RHG games, ever. Starting with one of the strangest guitar solos doing the National Anthem.  Those violent electric sounds should have been predictive of the chaos that would come at the end of the game. The crowd was dead; at most 600 paying customers; the gym experience: the same mediocre food, lack of facilities.   Most have commented on the good defense that we played.  But we may not be able to play it with such a depleted roster. Our shooting % went from 38% in the first half to a merger 22% in the 2nd half; 26% from 3 in the 1st to 14% in the 2nd. How tired were the players at the end of the game? There were many mistakes made at the end, as there have been in other games where we seemed to run out of gas.   A year ago, this year was shaping up to one where the team would have senior depth for the first time in many years. 2 Seniors leave, 3 players out with injuries, apparently for the year, and the team may lack the depth to play the tough defense to keep us in games, without running out of gas out at the end and handing the game away.   


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: ace93 on December 07, 2017, 12:09:50 pm
It was one of the worst RHG games, ever. Starting with one of the strangest guitar solos doing the National Anthem.  Those violent electric sounds should have been predictive of the chaos that would come at the end of the game. The crowd was dead; at most 600 paying customers; the gym experience: the same mediocre food, lack of facilities.   Most have commented on the good defense that we played.  But we may not be able to play it with such a depleted roster. Our shooting % went from 38% in the first half to a merger 22% in the 2nd half; 26% from 3 in the 1st to 14% in the 2nd. How tired were the players at the end of the game? There were many mistakes made at the end, as there have been in other games where we seemed to run out of gas.   A year ago, this year was shaping up to one where the team would have senior depth for the first time in many years. 2 Seniors leave, 3 players out with injuries, apparently for the year, and the team may lack the depth to play the tough defense to keep us in games, without running out of gas out at the end and handing the game away.  

Other than that, how was your evening? ;)


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: 85 on December 07, 2017, 12:20:12 pm
The flat tire and food poisoning were just a bonus.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: Maroon BleeDerr on December 07, 2017, 12:24:56 pm
It was one of the worst RHG games, ever. Starting with one of the strangest guitar solos doing the National Anthem.  Those violent electric sounds should have been predictive of the chaos that would come at the end of the game. The crowd was dead; at most 600 paying customers; the gym experience: the same mediocre food, lack of facilities.     

At least the National Anthem got some positive press https://deadspin.com/electric-guitar-national-anthem-is-the-best-national-an-1821080492 (https://deadspin.com/electric-guitar-national-anthem-is-the-best-national-an-1821080492)


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: drunkle on December 07, 2017, 12:30:13 pm
Neubauer absolutely congratulated soccer on twitter during their run.  But truthfully that is easy and far short of what has to happen.   Go on FUV. I dont understand his reluctance if you are a basketball fan he is great to listen to.  

If you win 50-47 it becomes a source of pride ask Virginia.  You lose those games then you get this thread. 

You beat me to the Virginia example.  Winning solves a lot of problems.

As an outsider, non-alum, I don't think it's the level of athlete.  Yes, the shooting has been horrible. No denying it.  But most of these guys have shot better elsewhere or even here before.  Yes, it isn't Kentucky or Duke level one and dones.  Win with what you have and better players will come and it becomes more sustainable, things get better and better and it feeds on itself.

I don't think it's the facilities.  I've enjoyed games at Rose Hill.  I'd like more wins. Winning will bring in more people, which creates a better atmosphere, which leads to a better home court advantage, which leads to more wins.  I don't think you can point to empty stands in a small old gym and say we need a new arena.  Fill up the old one and prove you need the new one.  Maybe new facilities will help get to the next level, but I very strongly believe the first step is starting a winning culture from the ground up.

I think Neubauer is a good coach.  He's light years ahead of the last 3 at least.  He does have issues with timeouts.  Almost every fan base has issues with their coach's use of timeouts. Some coaches horde.  Some use them to stop runs.  JN's usage is a little unique, but I don't think that is costing the games.  The in-bounding thing is frustrating and has been an issue.  Chartouny has had issues with it, too.  But that shouldn't happen at this level?  Uh, "Havlicek stole the ball..." "Bird stole the ball..."  Justifiably famous plays, and remembered because they stick out, but they happen.  Even to NBA all-stars playing for a title.  The other teams play defense and give scholarships, too.  But tighten it up.

I admit I found last night shocking and disheartening.  And Miami.  And George Washington.  And Sacred Heart.  Of course there were also some close wins last year on last second shots.  You play this close to the edge you will win and lose a few nail-biters.  The way some of them are lost, however, are pretty demoralizing. The 3 point shooting is also almost unfathomable.  Likewise demoralizing.  And that's the thing.  The team needs a shrink almost.  Or an exorcist.

I don't think the current players are effected by the last 25 years, but a winning culture requires a committed administration, fan base, staff and players.  Start with the staff and players.  Fan bases can be fickle and can turn on players.  I think you have a pretty good coach.  Whether he can overcome everything else I don't know.  But the players are demoralized.  The fans are.  Given where the program has been it could take a while to turn around, if it's possible.  

Last year everything seemed disastrous but things turned around somewhat.  That took great effort, and then ended in depressing fashion anyway.  And then losing so many pieces, and then the injuries and losses.  That take a toll, too.  We will see how they fight back this year.  Hopefully they show as much fight as last year.  These are the building blocks.  And these are the times that try men's souls.  Sorry for cliches.  These guys should be 5-3.  They very easily could be 7-1, even as horribly as they've shot.  Well, to be 7-1, they'd have to be better than the worst, but not that much.  Which might just be masking how badly they have played on offense.  

Each year you have to teach guys how to win.  Not "don't dribble out the clock" or "inbound the ball within 5 seconds".  They know that.  It's the mental fortitude, as well as just things becoming second nature.  People freeze when they fear failure. It's always a new team and each team has to learn it. But it helps to have it be something the older guys know (and some guys do come in that way, but it's rare), the coach's know, and they can see has come before them.  And a culture of defeat works in reverse.  You can see it spread.  Pekarek played in some wins two years ago, not great but ok.  Havsa did last year.  Tavares has gotten better, but they've gotten worse.  They have to fight through it.  They all do.

I still think the program is on the upswing.  Certainly relative to what it was. And I still say the A-10 is ripe for the picking (not as in we can finish 1st this year, but the league is relatively weak this year) and wish there weren't so many injuries.  I still think things look good with the guys coming in next year.  But it's too soon to wait for next year.  The players can't think like that.  That's part of the whole losing culture thing.

Anyway, despite the 5 second call, at least Evans actually made his first 3s.  And the defense is pretty stellar.  Another thing guys have to learn is it's 1 game.  For us it's 25 years.  But those 25 years don't define this team and they can't let what has happened thus far define them.  And I don't think they will, but I'm a little meshuga that way.  I just don't get the 2 win, 3 win, 7 win vibe.  Although with Miami, last night, even the Maine win on the resume, and the history, I can understand covering up in a fetal position.  I do get it.
        


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: Vinseiro2 on December 07, 2017, 12:46:24 pm

As an outsider, non-alum, I don't think it's the level of athlete.  

I don't think it's the facilities.  
  

   Way wrong on both counts.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: 85 on December 07, 2017, 12:51:04 pm
I'm not saying these guys are all high end recruits but they were all recruited elsewhere and some at higher levels. So to be the dead last 3 pt. shooting teaminnation is pretty amazing.



Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: ace93 on December 07, 2017, 12:53:15 pm
   Way wrong on both counts.

+1


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: 71 on December 07, 2017, 01:17:34 pm
You beat me to the Virginia example.  Winning solves a lot of problems.

As an outsider, non-alum, I don't think it's the level of athlete.  Yes, the shooting has been horrible. No denying it.  But most of these guys have shot better elsewhere or even here before.  Yes, it isn't Kentucky or Duke level one and dones.  Win with what you have and better players will come and it becomes more sustainable, things get better and better and it feeds on itself.

. . .

Oh my Lord, you poor, poor soul.  Why do you do this to yourself? The threads of our destiny have ensnared us in this debacle.  You on the other hand . . .


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: LXRF on December 07, 2017, 01:47:45 pm
Other than that, how was your evening? ;)

You should've been there. It would've made for a nice journey home!  ;)


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: drunkle on December 07, 2017, 01:53:45 pm
   Way wrong on both counts.

No I'm not.  The Miami loss and Harvard loss weren't the athletes.  Neither were the Tulane loss or ETSU loss, really.  Sure, better athletes help.  Better facilities help. Worse "athletes" beat better ones all the time at the college level, and some teams with good athletes, or good players, are awful.  Teams win games shooting like crap. Just not every single game. I've seen enough of our players and Whitt and Hill recruited some ok players.  That didn't help (although Whitt had some decent teams).

You don't have facilties and won't have any for years even if you started now with a plan to have them.  I've seen good teams play in shitholes.  Don't get me wrong, good new facilities would be great.  But you can get started down the road to respectability without them.  And you'll have to.  You have lost 2 1 possession games, a 2 possession game and a 3 possession game because your players have shot nearly 100% off their own career averages. Not because they can't beat Tulane's players one on one or because you can't get a Shake Shack Burger or have to walk out of the gym to take a piss.  Get above .500 a few years running, compete, get up to a certain level of fan interest and then go from there.  

And I heard everyone last year say they'd go winless in the A-10.  I said then that was dead wrong and that was at 0-3 already. And I didn't mean 2 wins, or what have you. Frankly speaking, even 7 wins looks tough now with the roster so thin.  So yes, I guess it is the players, but you have 2 guys down for the year immediately after losing 2 guys unexpectedly late, sure, it doesn't help.  They still lost games they should and could win.  And 17-14, 13-19, no, that's not enough.  But 2 decades of sub-teen level wins, it takes more than a couple of years to rebuild.

I'll shut up about all of it because folks disagree and it's pointless.  I think dwelling on it is mind-poison and of all things should be a separate thread.        


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: drunkle on December 07, 2017, 02:01:03 pm
Oh my Lord, you poor, poor soul.  Why do you do this to yourself? The threads of our destiny have ensnared us in this debacle.  You on the other hand . . .

Ha.  I am a huge basketball fan (I guess it shows).  I followed the Penders teams pretty closely, then off and on for years.  I got interested again when my nephew started at Fordham.  He graduated in 2015.  My family is from North Carolina, I went To Dean Smith's camps growing up and attended UNC.  But I live and work here.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: drunkle on December 07, 2017, 02:39:54 pm
+1

-2.  I win.   ;)

Seriously, the players?

Eric Paschall plays 26 mpg for 9-0 number 1 Kenpom ranked Villanova.

Christian Sengfelder plays 27 mpg for 8-1 Bpoise St., Kenpom number 61.

Antwoine Anderson plays 34 mpg for 6-3 UConn, Kenpom #90.

Manny Suarez plays 10 mpg for 6-2 Creighton, Kenpom #32.

Nych Smith plays 20 mpg for 5-4 Winthrop, which went to the NCAAs last year.

Jon Severe played 26 mpg for 22-13 Iona last year.

OK, all except Smyth Pecora recruits.  But Pecora had all of them but Smyth in 2014-15. And went 10-21, 4-14.

Neubauer had them but lost Paschall and the very next year they went 17-14, 8-10.

Quibble about strength of schedule.  But Fordham has had good enough players in certain years and the teams were still awful.

Other teams want those players.  Some pretty good teams.  They play.  They may not be stars.  But they are good NCAA level players.  That's a whole team of them out there.

I know some on here hate mentioning the guys that left, the woe is us and what if.  What I'm talking about is the opposite.

People have bemoaned the level of players for years.  That's not why you were so bad. You had terrible coaches.

You bemoan the facilities.  But those "good" players came here.  They didn't play well for Pecora, or for other coaches in the past.

OK, those players aren't the players on the current team.  And you had late defections and injuries.  But all of these guys would get jobs elsewhere.  I heard it all last year.  This team was that close to .500 in A-10 for the first time in a decade. Blown late lead to GW, and to Duquesne.  And all I hear is oh we don't have players when you were 0-3.  Oh, Bunting can't play.  Now we see he can. 

OK, sure, it's the players.  They are 3-5 and only 8 guys.  But you (not you Ace, I'm speaking of generic fans) have all said it's the players and the facilities again and again, but players that came here are winning players all over the place and still lost here under the wrong coach.

Maybe JN can't overcome all of this.  But you have taken steps in the right direction and what I think is delusional is to think it changes overnight.  Any bumps on the road and a woe is us attitude just swamps the board.  It isn't rational.

And it's also pretty irrational to be optimistic about this year given where things stand.  But they still have to play the games.  And things looked suck ass  last year and still ended up with some fun basketball and some nice wins, if ultimately disappointing.  The 2 years combined are light years ahead of anything for a long time.     

Guys are missing.  Evans and raut are freshmen.  It takes time.  each of the last 2 years we got better as the season went on.  I don't like crapping the out of conference bed.  Maybe sometime we'll be good and lucky at the same time.




Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: Rich93 on December 07, 2017, 02:43:39 pm
Drunkle killing it in this thread.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: 97Ram on December 07, 2017, 02:54:46 pm
-2.  I win.   ;)

Seriously, the players?

Eric Paschall plays 26 mpg for 9-0 number 1 Kenpom ranked Villanova.

Christian Sengfelder plays 27 mpg for 8-1 Bpoise St., Kenpom number 61.

Antwoine Anderson plays 34 mpg for 6-3 UConn, Kenpom #90.

Manny Suarez plays 10 mpg for 6-2 Creighton, Kenpom #32.

Nych Smith plays 20 mpg for 5-4 Winthrop, which went to the NCAAs last year.

Jon Severe played 26 mpg for 22-13 Iona last year.

OK, all except Smyth Pecora recruits.  But Pecora had all of them but Smyth in 2014-15. And went 10-21, 4-14.

Neubauer had them but lost Paschall and the very next year they went 17-14, 8-10.

Quibble about strength of schedule.  But Fordham has had good enough players in certain years and the teams were still awful.

Other teams want those players.  Some pretty good teams.  They play.  They may not be stars.  But they are good NCAA level players.  That's a whole team of them out there.

I know some on here hate mentioning the guys that left, the woe is us and what if.  What I'm talking about is the opposite.

People have bemoaned the level of players for years.  That's not why you were so bad. You had terrible coaches.

You bemoan the facilities.  But those "good" players came here.  They didn't play well for Pecora, or for other coaches in the past.

OK, those players aren't the players on the current team.  And you had late defections and injuries.  But all of these guys would get jobs elsewhere.  I heard it all last year.  This team was that close to .500 in A-10 for the first time in a decade. Blown late lead to GW, and to Duquesne.  And all I hear is oh we don't have players when you were 0-3.  Oh, Bunting can't play.  Now we see he can. 

OK, sure, it's the players.  They are 3-5 and only 8 guys.  But you (not you Ace, I'm speaking of generic fans) have all said it's the players and the facilities again and again, but players that came here are winning players all over the place and still lost here under the wrong coach.

Maybe JN can't overcome all of this.  But you have taken steps in the right direction and what I think is delusional is to think it changes overnight.  Any bumps on the road and a woe is us attitude just swamps the board.  It isn't rational.

And it's also pretty irrational to be optimistic about this year given where things stand.  But they still have to play the games.  And things looked suck ass  last year and still ended up with some fun basketball and some nice wins, if ultimately disappointing.  The 2 years combined are light years ahead of anything for a long time.     

Guys are missing.  Evans and raut are freshmen.  It takes time.  each of the last 2 years we got better as the season went on.  I don't like crapping the out of conference bed.  Maybe sometime we'll be good and lucky at the same time.




Jahshire Hardnett also averaging 24 mins a game for a 7-2 BYU Team. 

We've gotten players.  Our facilities suck and don't help recruiting -- but they're not the reason why Chartouny lost his shooting touch, why Pekarek completely regressed and why Ohams and Bunting are out with season-ending injuries.   


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: JohnG92 on December 07, 2017, 03:00:11 pm
good players want to leave here. Chartouny would be gone if he had another option for this season.
it is the facilities and everything else that feeds into the culture of losing. it gets old quick even if they come.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: PeterMartin08 on December 07, 2017, 03:01:12 pm
Not to get off topic, but another player that was a complete miss at Fordham, but did just fine elsewhere (albeit it a lower level) is Jeff Short. I believe he ended up with an NCAA appearance at Norfolk State, averaged 19 ppg his junior year, 16 ppg as a senior - and shot it well too.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: ace93 on December 07, 2017, 03:08:03 pm
-2.  I win.   ;)

Seriously, the players?

Eric Paschall plays 26 mpg for 9-0 number 1 Kenpom ranked Villanova.

Christian Sengfelder plays 27 mpg for 8-1 Bpoise St., Kenpom number 61.

Antwoine Anderson plays 34 mpg for 6-3 UConn, Kenpom #90.

Manny Suarez plays 10 mpg for 6-2 Creighton, Kenpom #32.

Nych Smith plays 20 mpg for 5-4 Winthrop, which went to the NCAAs last year.

Jon Severe played 26 mpg for 22-13 Iona last year.

OK, all except Smyth Pecora recruits.  But Pecora had all of them but Smyth in 2014-15. And went 10-21, 4-14.

Neubauer had them but lost Paschall and the very next year they went 17-14, 8-10.

Quibble about strength of schedule.  But Fordham has had good enough players in certain years and the teams were still awful.

Other teams want those players.  Some pretty good teams.  They play.  They may not be stars.  But they are good NCAA level players.  That's a whole team of them out there.

I know some on here hate mentioning the guys that left, the woe is us and what if.  What I'm talking about is the opposite.

People have bemoaned the level of players for years.  That's not why you were so bad. You had terrible coaches.

You bemoan the facilities.  But those "good" players came here.  They didn't play well for Pecora, or for other coaches in the past.

OK, those players aren't the players on the current team.  And you had late defections and injuries.  But all of these guys would get jobs elsewhere.  I heard it all last year.  This team was that close to .500 in A-10 for the first time in a decade. Blown late lead to GW, and to Duquesne.  And all I hear is oh we don't have players when you were 0-3.  Oh, Bunting can't play.  Now we see he can. 

OK, sure, it's the players.  They are 3-5 and only 8 guys.  But you (not you Ace, I'm speaking of generic fans) have all said it's the players and the facilities again and again, but players that came here are winning players all over the place and still lost here under the wrong coach.

Maybe JN can't overcome all of this.  But you have taken steps in the right direction and what I think is delusional is to think it changes overnight.  Any bumps on the road and a woe is us attitude just swamps the board.  It isn't rational.

And it's also pretty irrational to be optimistic about this year given where things stand.  But they still have to play the games.  And things looked suck ass  last year and still ended up with some fun basketball and some nice wins, if ultimately disappointing.  The 2 years combined are light years ahead of anything for a long time.    

Guys are missing.  Evans and raut are freshmen.  It takes time.  each of the last 2 years we got better as the season went on.  I don't like crapping the out of conference bed.  Maybe sometime we'll be good and lucky at the same time.

You mention a bunch of players that are not here, some whose eligibility has been exhausted or would be if they had stayed. That is too small a scattering, you need 2 or 3 of those type of guys every year to be successful. How many of those guys you mention were all A10?

But let's say I give it to you and it is not difficult to recruit here, so what you are saying is that Neubauer and staff suck as recruiters?


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: high school hoops on December 07, 2017, 03:14:12 pm
We still play very good defense for the most part. Harvard did not get a lot of great looks and our defensive system and toughness gets much of the credit for the low score. Harvard scored 70 points in a close loss to Kentucky. You can't just look at the pace of play ( for low scores) as we do defend well for the most part. We are playing a European style offensive system but we don't have the talent to play that style. We have no true 4 or5 which makes it very difficult to play that style of play. Yet, despite that limitation, many of our 3 point misses last night were wide open looks and the misses were not close. I don't like the shooting mechanics of several of our kids.

We made a lot of mistakes at the end of the game last night. For example, we were up 1 with 18 seconds left and could not get the ball inbounds even though we knew we were going to be fouled. We had two guys at the 3 point line with the other two guys at mid court ( opposite sides). We did not use any screens to get someone open and we were spread much too wide to effectively use lots of movement in a tight space to create openings. This made ball denial so much easier for Harvard.





Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: Richie68 on December 07, 2017, 03:27:50 pm
-2.  I win.   ;)

Seriously, the players?

Eric Paschall plays 26 mpg for 9-0 number 1 Kenpom ranked Villanova.

Christian Sengfelder plays 27 mpg for 8-1 Bpoise St., Kenpom number 61.

Antwoine Anderson plays 34 mpg for 6-3 UConn, Kenpom #90.

Manny Suarez plays 10 mpg for 6-2 Creighton, Kenpom #32.

Nych Smith plays 20 mpg for 5-4 Winthrop, which went to the NCAAs last year.

Jon Severe played 26 mpg for 22-13 Iona last year.

OK, all except Smyth Pecora recruits.  But Pecora had all of them but Smyth in 2014-15. And went 10-21, 4-14.

Neubauer had them but lost Paschall and the very next year they went 17-14, 8-10.

Quibble about strength of schedule.  But Fordham has had good enough players in certain years and the teams were still awful.

Other teams want those players.  Some pretty good teams.  They play.  They may not be stars.  But they are good NCAA level players.  That's a whole team of them out there.

I know some on here hate mentioning the guys that left, the woe is us and what if.  What I'm talking about is the opposite.

People have bemoaned the level of players for years.  That's not why you were so bad. You had terrible coaches.

You bemoan the facilities.  But those "good" players came here.  They didn't play well for Pecora, or for other coaches in the past.

OK, those players aren't the players on the current team.  And you had late defections and injuries.  But all of these guys would get jobs elsewhere.  I heard it all last year.  This team was that close to .500 in A-10 for the first time in a decade. Blown late lead to GW, and to Duquesne.  And all I hear is oh we don't have players when you were 0-3.  Oh, Bunting can't play.  Now we see he can. 

OK, sure, it's the players.  They are 3-5 and only 8 guys.  But you (not you Ace, I'm speaking of generic fans) have all said it's the players and the facilities again and again, but players that came here are winning players all over the place and still lost here under the wrong coach.

Maybe JN can't overcome all of this.  But you have taken steps in the right direction and what I think is delusional is to think it changes overnight.  Any bumps on the road and a woe is us attitude just swamps the board.  It isn't rational.

And it's also pretty irrational to be optimistic about this year given where things stand.  But they still have to play the games.  And things looked suck ass  last year and still ended up with some fun basketball and some nice wins, if ultimately disappointing.  The 2 years combined are light years ahead of anything for a long time.     

Guys are missing.  Evans and raut are freshmen.  It takes time.  each of the last 2 years we got better as the season went on.  I don't like crapping the out of conference bed.  Maybe sometime we'll be good and lucky at the same time.

While I think you make a good argument (although reading your lengthy posts is a bit hard on the eyes >:D), I think that having an offensive set up based upon shooting the 3 pointer doesn't really work if your team is dead last in 3 point shooting percentage.  I know that you have laid out the fact that it is a small sample of games and that these guys shot the 3 much better in their prior careers.  But this overlooks the fact that they really never played with an offensive strategy like this.  Their prior 3 point history was almost certainly based on offenses where they took the 3 when it was available and they felt comfortable.

In our current set up, the offensive game plan is to play basically a half court offense based upon passing the ball around or penetration dribbling and then pass it out to the open man for the 3 pointer.  Unfortunately , we are passing too much and dribbling too much deep into the shot clock so that the result is that the man getting the 3 must shoot with only a few seconds to go.  This is not conducive to hitting those 3's with much success. 

I think JN has to modify this set up and have his players manage the clock a lot better.  This is what I intended to post above.  (My post is a little long too.  :D)


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: drunkle on December 07, 2017, 03:38:36 pm
You mention a bunch of players that are not here, some whose eligibility has been exhausted or would be if they had stayed. That is too small a scattering, you need 2 or 3 of those type of guys every year to be successful. How many of those guys you mention were all A10?

But let's say I give it to you and it is not difficult to recruit here, so what you are saying is that Neubauer and staff suck as recruiters?

I am not saying it isn't hard to recruit here.  I am saying good enough players were here.  A smattering of guys, ok, but 5 of them listed were all here under Pecora in 14-15, and Mandell Thomas, Rhoomes, Bryan Smith and Zarkovic.  That's plenty for 200 minutes a game.

Yes, you need players, and this year we have injuries (counting Zarko, 3 guys) and guys defected.  Which is the college hoops landscape nowadays.  And we have 2 guys transferring in taking up spots.  Syracuse is playing 7 guys.  So is Georgia Tech.  Not saying we are that level, but a lot of teams have that issue, even big schools.  But I think maybe we gambled this year with 2 transfers and then Chuba and Bunting hurt.

This is basically only JN's 2nd class.  He was hired March 30, 2015, he had no shot at that year really and lost Paschall.

More and better players obviously helps.  It isn't why the team was awful for 25 years save a couple of Whitt years, and neither are the facilities. Those are symptoms, and a good coach and staff can, to a degree, overcome that. Maybe JN isn't that coach.  I don't know.  I like the 2 guys coming in next year.  And Portley.  Gazi less enthused, but lots of guys take time.

This year stinks so far but the talent level of the players only explains so much.  Why they are so much worse than they have been even while here in the past is a different story.  It's their mindset and their team play that is worse than their physical level of ability.  And part of that is on JN, but on the whole of the evidence over 2 years I'd say things aren't as bleak as they look and will get better.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: drunkle on December 07, 2017, 03:43:01 pm
While I think you make a good argument (although reading your lengthy posts is a bit hard on the eyes >:D), I think that having an offensive set up based upon shooting the 3 pointer doesn't really work if your team is dead last in 3 point shooting percentage.  I know that you have laid out the fact that it is a small sample of games and that these guys shot the 3 much better in their prior careers.  But this overlooks the fact that they really never played with an offensive strategy like this.  Their prior 3 point history was almost certainly based on offenses where they took the 3 when it was available and they felt comfortable.

In our current set up, the offensive game plan is to play basically a half court offense based upon passing the ball around or penetration dribbling and then pass it out to the open man for the 3 pointer.  Unfortunately , we are passing too much and dribbling too much deep into the shot clock so that the result is that the man getting the 3 must shoot with only a few seconds to go.  This is not conducive to hitting those 3's with much success. 

I think JN has to modify this set up and have his players manage the clock a lot better.  This is what I intended to post above.  (My post is a little long too.  :D)

Apologies for the length of the posts.  For a message board format too much and I should probably start a blog if I'm going into so much detail.

And while the sample was small it's getting bigger and no denying it.  The shooting stinks.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: Rich93 on December 07, 2017, 03:49:17 pm
If guys were shooting a little below their expected averages and this was the result I would have a different take.  But these guys are shooting at a rate far below their capability.  I think we can all agree these guys are not that bad shooters.  We would be 5-3 even if we shot slighly worse than last year. They might not be good but they are not the worst in the nation. It is crazy.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: Vinseiro2 on December 07, 2017, 03:56:20 pm
No I'm not.         

   If it takes so many words to make your point, you must be wrong  ;)

   Look, I've argued that we have had and can get better players to come here.  But if you're impressed with the players we've gotten here, it is reasonable to think that we'd do even better with modern facilities and a modern program.  There's a big part of turning those losses around to wins.

   The athletes you listed moved on to squads with better surrounding casts and mostly better facilities.  I believe that impacts their production in many ways.

   If you're saying that we just need a coach who can both get the talent and be a good tactician, then I agree.  But as you say, it is a difficult job as constituted.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: ace93 on December 07, 2017, 04:10:16 pm
  If it takes so many words to make your point, you must be wrong  ;)

   Look, I've argued that we have had and can get better players to come here.  But if you're impressed with the players we've gotten here, it is reasonable to think that we'd do even better with modern facilities and a modern program.  There's a big part of turning those losses around to wins.

   The athletes you listed moved on to squads with better surrounding casts and mostly better facilities.  I believe that impacts their production in many ways.

   If you're saying that we just need a coach who can both get the talent and be a good tactician, then I agree.  But as you say, it is a difficult job as constituted.

Precisely.

And I did take note that you have always been one to argue that we have had and can get better players to come here. That made your previous post even more on the mark, in my view.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: greenwood on December 07, 2017, 04:42:09 pm
Regarding the returning players who I have seen shoot 3s better -

Chartouny has the most near misses, in and outs, and is the best bet to improve
Tavares I feel will always be streaky from deep
Slanina at times does not rise up confidently and is the guy who before he releases it you can best predict whether it's going in or not
Havsa is not a 3 point shooter and the GW game was blind squirrel finding an acorn
Pekarek is a raft adrift in a nor'easter


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: drunkle on December 07, 2017, 04:43:17 pm
Precisely.

And I did take note that you have always been one to argue that we have had and can get better players to come here. That made your previous post even more on the mark, in my view.

Those are fair points, both you guys.  To a degree I'm talking this group, but mostly can it be done at all.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: VTRAM on December 07, 2017, 04:57:06 pm
Regarding the returning players who I have seen shoot 3s better -

Chartouny has the most near misses, in and outs, and is the best bet to improve
Tavares I feel will always be streaky from deep
Slanina at times does not rise up confidently and is the guy who before he releases it you can best predict whether it's going in or not
Havsa is not a 3 point shooter and the GW game was blind squirrel finding an acorn
Pekarek is a raft adrift in a nor'easter

Pretty much agree here. I don;t expect Tavares, Havsa or Pekarek to make huge jumps in 3%. Slanina has been fine.

It really comes down to Chartouny, Hicks, Evans, Raut. Those 4 have taken 114 3's and made 28. 25% form the 4 guys we would have expected to be our best 3 point shooters. Just not good enough.

We need less takes from Taveres, Havsa, and Pekarek and more makes from the other 5. Really as simple as that. The rest of the coaching stuff is small bananas comparatively. 


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: Kaup on December 07, 2017, 05:25:01 pm
Better facilities certainly sweetens our sales pitch to recruits, but it's not happening any time soon, so let's move on.  There are other programs with less to sell than Fordham who have more consistent success (Or should I say any success) on the hardwood.

As has been pointed out, we certainly haven't had overpowering talent here, but it has been decent (Jashire Hardnett starts at BYU incidentally, and I didn't see his name on any of the lists of transfers).  The problem has been our coaching hires have been abysmal and, for the most part, predictably so. 

As I recall, Nick left Hill arguably the best backcourt in the A10, the 6th Man of the Year and the A10's Most Improved Player.  Not a bare cupboard. Admittedly I thought we were on our way to the big time when that coaching hire was announced and, on paper, we saw a quantum surge in recruiting.  Most of those players didn't pan out and if they did, it wasn't at Fordham.  Bottom line, Hill was the wrong hire for numerous reasons (personality, over coaching and under teaching, understanding and comfort level with Fordham and the college game in general, to name a few short comings), and I would have expected our AD who has spent most of his life on or around the basketball court to have a better understanding of who would be a good fit at the university he graduated from and worked at for most of his adult life.

Enter DW.  A college basketball icon who, despite his pedigree and resume, took nearly two decades to get his first head coaching job and it's at ... Wagner?!?  I remember watching their NCAA Tourny game against Pitt in 2003 and thinking, he's just gonna let these kids run up and down the floor with Pitt and get blown out without coaching or making any adjustments at all!  His success at Wagner was based on his ability to out recruit his competition in a lesser conference.  Now he and his staff brought in some talented recruits, but they couldn't coach or develop talent.  To succeed at Fordham,. you have to be a decent recruiter and a decent coach since you're not likely to out recruit the rest of the conference.  Another big name signing, but a competent AD sniffs out DW's weaknesses and his name drops off the list of candidates.

Fast forward to Pecora.  See the paragraph above.  Again, the AD fails to do his due diligence and makes the easy hire after fraudulently announcing a national search.  Malpractice his part which would never be accepted in the private sector (Possibly more malpractice on the part of that used car salesman/head coach, but I digress.).

So now we know what the problem has been for the last 25-30 years.  The minor successes we have had since the early 90s have been despite our AD, and that's a recipe for failure.  Now we've got a new AD, who will still have to fight through the usual Fordham administrative b.s. and meddling BOTs, but I think he's hired our best coach in 20 years (I'm also anxious to see who he lands as our new football coach.).

I like Neubauer and believe he can coach, but he needs to make some adjustments both on the offensive end of the floor, and with how he engages the Fordham community.  We'll see what happens, but the problem isn't our gym, offices or training facilities.  They don't help matters, and it's easy to point to them as the problem, but the problem had been our inability to identify and support to the best of Fordham's ability qualified coaching candidates.  I'm pissed about the results so far, but not yet ready to bury Neubauer under the Rose Hill Gymnasium.

p.s.  Video of Harvard's game winning 3 was just a part of the opening to Around The Horn.  That should cheer everyone up.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: Hambletonian46 on December 07, 2017, 07:39:25 pm
I tend to agree with drunkie. We have had decent enough players. are they the best? no, but for a team in their part of the ocean they are perfectly serviceable.

the issue in my mind is execution. they do not execute well at all. the question that remains is whether it is because they are under-coached or are chronic under-performers. They just don't seem to care enough to be precise, make those FT's and open threes, protect the ball, watch the effing shot clock. they need to expect more from themselves. they shoot airball after airball, they look like they are playing a pickup game.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: Richie68 on December 08, 2017, 01:31:12 am
More briefly than i said before, I reiterate, I think we have such a bad 3 point shooting percentage because we are taking the shots too late into the 30 seconds allowed as the shot clock winds down when you have to hoist it up.  Added pressure and not always when you're ready to shoot. 

I think these guys can probably shoot the 3 a lot better but I've seen guys pass up open 3's early to work it around instead and I've seen this quite frequently during the games. 


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: 85 on December 08, 2017, 08:03:16 am
Facilities is not the issue here. These are D-1 basketball players who have been recruited to our conference level and some, above. That means you should be capable of hitting a wide open 3 pointer, kids in the 8th grade can do that.  I dont like the offense and I dont like al lthe combo guards, but it does create enough opportunities.

The offense is a bit slow and predictable, however, there are enough wide open threes being created to at least make it effective on paper. So right now, the problem is the players. Plain and simple. Evans was an Oklahoma State recruit, one of the highest regarded recruits we have had in years, and he clanks 0-17 to start season. Wasnt Perris Hicks a UTEP target? Chartounty was the A-10 rookie of year and he is shooting 15% from 3.....

We are dead last in the country at 3 point shooting, in an offense predicated on the 3. That is not facilities. We are not signing guys who had no other D1 offers or no other  options, these are guys recruited at the A-10 level,the mid major level and in some cases, the high major level.

Its the players at this juncture.  Tavares is 25% from 3....Chartouny .156 from 3, Evans  .095 from 3, and alas Mr. Blutarski......Havsa is .000 from 3 point land.... .........the drunk kids in skinny jeans shoot better than that during the halftime contests......so something is wildly amiss in the preparation and the game execution....change something...do something different, change the routine.....simply waiting for trhe day that the 3's start to fall is akin to Frank waiting for the day he gets a check for $50M for a new arena.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: PA Ram on December 08, 2017, 08:31:36 am
The D is good enough to win games against good teams.  When the 3's start falling we'll have enough good wins to feel good about the development of the team and to get pumped about next year.  That's my expectation given the pattern the last few years.  It's better than previous patterns of starting off with an inkling of promise and then rapidly circling the drain. 

Coach em up but double down on what has been an awful offense imo.  Evans will eventually break through and when the 3's start falling, combined with our D, I could see us doing better than expected in A10 play.  If I wasn't an optimist I would have left here long ago.

The one thing that baffles me most since I'm a guy who is not as in tune with the details of the team as you guys are is Havsa.  He was such a revelation last year and appeared to be good enough to be one of the focal points of our offense this year.  Now, not only is he not producing but I see you guys ripping him in a way that makes me think there was off the court stuff (or prima donna stuff) that went on.  Is that right or is it just that he's playing horribly and everyone's pissed?


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: RamFan78 on December 08, 2017, 08:54:16 am
The D is good enough to win games against good teams.  When the 3's start falling we'll have enough good wins to feel good about the development of the team and to get pumped about next year.  That's my expectation given the pattern the last few years.  It's better than previous patterns of starting off with an inkling of promise and then rapidly circling the drain. 

Coach em up but double down on what has been an awful offense imo.  Evans will eventually break through and when the 3's start falling, combined with our D, I could see us doing better than expected in A10 play.  If I wasn't an optimist I would have left here long ago.

The one thing that baffles me most since I'm a guy who is not as in tune with the details of the team as you guys are is Havsa.  He was such a revelation last year and appeared to be good enough to be one of the focal points of our offense this year.  Now, not only is he not producing but I see you guys ripping him in a way that makes me think there was off the court stuff (or prima donna stuff) that went on.  Is that right or is it just that he's playing horribly and everyone's pissed?

Right now with the D as it is we are not even beating mediocre teams. As good as it is it can't make up for the lousy offense we have. If that is the case not sure how you think it will be good enough to produce wins against good teams. Its too much of a difference to make up for. Also think about this. We are shooting this bad right now and missing uncontested shots. When we play better teams their defense will be better and thus the shots will be contested more. I am not sure I see a dramatic improvement in shooting.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: ace93 on December 08, 2017, 08:59:35 am
Right now with the D as it is we are not even beating mediocre teams. As good as it is it can't make up for the lousy offense we have. If that is the case not sure how you think it will be good enough to produce wins against good teams. Its too much of a difference to make up for. Also think about this. We are shooting this bad right now and missing uncontested shots. When we play better teams their defense will be better and thus the shots will be contested more. I am not sure I see a dramatic improvement in shooting.

Not surprising, and I don't mean that in a bad way. It is a realistic view, though some might say pessimistic. I tend to be a bit of a pessimist myself, though I'd argue that I am a realist as well. PA Ram clearly said he is an optimist.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: 85 on December 08, 2017, 09:01:57 am
I think this is where we need a new term, I'm a "Fordhamist. "     Part masochist, part optimist, significantly pessimist, yet always loyalist.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: ace93 on December 08, 2017, 09:03:48 am
I think this is where we need a new term, I'm a "Fordhamist. "     Part masochist, part optimist, significantly pessimist, yet always loyalist.

I like it. Let's make t-shirts!


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: Rich93 on December 08, 2017, 09:31:38 am
I think this is where we need a new term, I'm a "Fordhamist. "     Part masochist, part optimist, significantly pessimist, yet always loyalist.

This is awesome.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: 85 on December 08, 2017, 09:31:51 am
At least the National Anthem got some positive press https://deadspin.com/electric-guitar-national-anthem-is-the-best-national-an-1821080492 (https://deadspin.com/electric-guitar-national-anthem-is-the-best-national-an-1821080492)

My goodness I just watched it.

I think taking a knee may have been appropriate this time, like please god make it stop!


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: Rich93 on December 08, 2017, 09:37:46 am
My goodness I just watched it.

I think taking a knee may have been appropriate this time, like please god make it stop!

Jimmy Hendrix he is not.  Should have known right there that night was not going to end well. 


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: 85 on December 08, 2017, 09:38:35 am
Nothing against the kid but you had the military color guard, and about 6 fans in their 90's.  sort of like that scene from Back to the Future. Know your audience for god sakes....or lack thereof.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: drunkle on December 08, 2017, 10:36:59 am
Right now with the D as it is we are not even beating mediocre teams. As good as it is it can't make up for the lousy offense we have. If that is the case not sure how you think it will be good enough to produce wins against good teams. Its too much of a difference to make up for. Also think about this. We are shooting this bad right now and missing uncontested shots. When we play better teams their defense will be better and thus the shots will be contested more. I am not sure I see a dramatic improvement in shooting.

As far as improvement against better D's, 3 shooting is pretty random.  Havsa was 0-5 in ooc last year, 7-15 in conference.  Pekarek was 3-17 OOC his freshman year, 23-70 in conference.  Which isn't great but I'd take 32% from the bench.  Right now they are playing awfully.  Pekarek played 22 mpg as a frosh in conference for an 8-10 team against A-10 foes.  Havsa played 18 mpg in conference last year.  They are playing awfully, no doubt.  Just playing up to prior levels, which isn't great, would really improve the team.  And they are playing lesser roles than they were before, even on an 8 man team.  Hard to fathom but they may be called upon for more, but oddly enough they delivered before when you wouldn't think they could.

The team as a whole actually shot better from 3 in conference last year than in OOC.  .324 in OOC (which seems like Nirvana now), versus .342 in conference. Hawkins went from 27.8% to 40.4%.  Anderson went from 28.2% to 37.8%.  Sengfelder did the opposite.  It's pretty random.

Not sure why we've been so awful this year, but everyone seems to be underperforming at once, and by a wide margin.  Just hoping that in general Evans and the whole team improve as the season goes along and gets acclimated to this level, as the teams have done the past couple of years.  Unfortunately last year and this we are burying ourselves early.

One problem now is that,as the sample size grows, it starts to look like Pekarek is just a 25% shooter from 3, not the 32% he managed in conference his freshman year.  That Havsa likewise is a 25% shooter over a larger sample.  And worse, that Tavares is a 30% shooter (below that this year), and that JC is a 33% shooter.  That's now his career %, over a fairly large sample.  He looked good last year.  Now he's lost.  Overall our 8 guys have shot .301 from 3, 217-719, in their careers.  Which again is actually a lot better than they have shot this year.  But nothing to shoot for.  A very sad benchmark.  That's how bad they have been to start the year. They will have to get better.  Even if they take fewer 3s they can't win shooting under 33%.

Players can of course get better.  Even in season.  If they start to make some hopefully it becomes infectious.  Certainly the awful shooting has been pretty viral thus far.



Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: RamFan78 on December 08, 2017, 10:49:20 am
Not surprising, and I don't mean that in a bad way. It is a realistic view, though some might say pessimistic. I tend to be a bit of a pessimist myself, though I'd argue that I am a realist as well. PA Ram clearly said he is an optimist.

Good summation. I am trying to think of a silver lining but its tough right now. I guess one could go along the lines of thinking that no team can shoot this bad for a whole season. Right?


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: PA Ram on December 08, 2017, 11:16:14 am
I think this is where we need a new term, I'm a "Fordhamist. "     Part masochist, part optimist, significantly pessimist, yet always loyalist.
ha!

my name is Fahro ...


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: SkipPass71 on December 08, 2017, 11:27:04 am
THUD!!!!  Is this rock bottom, the proverbial nadir?  Has to be.  Hard to say more than has been said on these pages. It was all downhill following the cool electric guitar "Hendrix" anthem.  Looking around the gym and on the floor, nobody seemed to know how to react to this rendition.  How to describe the play of Harvard for most of the game??...oh yes, INEPT, AWFUL!  We came out with several of our players (I don't have to mention names) preening and with a swagger appropriate for say, an undefeated team.  Some looked like they thought Harlem Globetrotter scouts were in attendance and they were auditioning. As Rizzuto used to say, they were "cutting the pie" in a manner indicating that they were confident in blowing out this hapless Harvard squad!   That's how I saw us allow the pathetically performing Crimson to hang around and ultimately beat us-plus all the reasons cited on these pages.  The expression:  "Can't shoot it into the ocean"  in their case that would include being out there in a boat. I mean, they shot 33% for the game and beat us, in part because we managed to be worse!!  

JN is working hard, but I distinctly saw Amaker look nonplussed (and then maybe thankful?) when at the 10 minute mark during a run that looked like we would pull away, he (JN) called one of his patented time-outs after a make.  This was our next to last TO and it did not, to say the least, work in our favor!

Highlight for me...friend held Christmas party at Silvio's up on So. Broadway in Yonkers.  Went there straight from the game-Excellent!

Bring some toys for kids to the game.  As for our Rams, we need some divine inspiration.  Let's see.

 


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: Bay Ridge on December 08, 2017, 11:36:27 am
That rendition of the national anthem had everyone ( all 500 of us ) shaking our heads in disbelief. And then everything went downhill from there


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: 85 on December 08, 2017, 11:39:26 am
(https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.p-xYJKITJ2yZsjqsS3irQQC-Es&pid=15.1&P=0&w=300&h=300)


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: Vinseiro2 on December 08, 2017, 11:53:41 am
The one thing that baffles me most since I'm a guy who is not as in tune with the details of the team as you guys are is Havsa.  He was such a revelation last year and appeared to be good enough to be one of the focal points of our offense this year. 

   This is where I depart.  I didn't think Havsa was cut out for this level based on what I saw.  Certainly not that he was "such a revelation" and "good enough to be one of the focal points of our offense this year".  I think too many here overrate some players and make projections that aren't going to pan out.  You have to look at body mechanics, physical ability, basketball skills, all in context of our competition.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: 85 on December 08, 2017, 11:55:20 am
Agreed Vin, he is completely unorthodox, herky jerky. Some guys can play that way.... There was a very small snippet last year where he played well but most people took that with a grain of salt.and gave him a let's wait and see.... I think now, we have seen.......NEXT!


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: VTRAM on December 08, 2017, 12:49:40 pm
Agreed Vin, he is completely unorthodox, herky jerky. Some guys can play that way.... There was a very small snippet last year where he played well but most people took that with a grain of salt.and gave him a let's wait and see.... I think now, we have seen.......NEXT!

It is not that Havsa hasn't been consistent. It is that none of our guards outside of Taveres have played especially well on offense.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: 85 on December 08, 2017, 12:56:04 pm
Our guards have not shot well. Havsa looks like he is running all over the place with no purpose.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: Kaup on December 08, 2017, 01:24:47 pm
Agreed Vin, he is completely unorthodox, herky jerky. Some guys can play that way.... There was a very small snippet last year where he played well but most people took that with a grain of salt.and gave him a let's wait and see.... I think now, we have seen.......NEXT!
Havsa is perfectly fine physically for this level, and minus his shot clock violation played pretty well on Wed.  His problems are 1) his mental approach to the game, and 2) his game suffers when he's surrounded by guys playing poorly or don't know what they're doing.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: Vinseiro2 on December 08, 2017, 03:00:01 pm
Havsa is perfectly fine physically for this level, and minus his shot clock violation played pretty well on Wed.  His problems are 1) his mental approach to the game, and 2) his game suffers when he's surrounded by guys playing poorly or don't know what they're doing.

   I disagree on all counts.  The coaching staff brought in Evans and has multiple similar guards coming in next season , so that tells you something about what they're thinking.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: LXRF on December 08, 2017, 03:37:18 pm
3 of the 4 guards coming in next year are 6-4" or over which is taller than Evans is, so they are not similar to him.  They are similar in height to Havsa.  Since recruiting is often taking the best that is thought available at that time, it is not reliable to give the what may be the reason the team recruits certain players at any one time. Havsa is getting playing time this year, even though he hasn't started strong, or continued to progress from where he was at the end of last season.  This is not unusual for a sophmore, the condition has even been given a name.  It will be interesting to see how he progresses from here, since on an 8 man squad he is certain to get his share of playing time. 


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: drunkle on December 08, 2017, 03:39:01 pm
   I disagree on all counts.  The coaching staff brought in Evans and has multiple similar guards coming in next season , so that tells you something about what they're thinking.

They are thinking there's a cap on the number of 6'9" or taller you can have at 1?

I think the JN likes to have a lot of guards and wings.  Evans has played worse than Havsa did last year, so Havsa is completely acceptable as a back-up player if he plays like he did last year.  But he hasn't.

I remember you questioned Havsa even after some of his decent games last year so you have been correct thus far.  It was too small a sample to get any real indication.    


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: 85 on December 08, 2017, 03:41:10 pm
That's silly, 6ft 2 versus 6ft 4, they are all playing the same position. I could not care less how Havsa looks out there physically, it is usually irrelevant, what matters is how you play. And I totally disagree that he isnt playing well because others dont know what they are doing. Havsa is running around and dribbling aimlessly with the basketball, not showing any direction or purpose. When he shoots, he is 0 for the season from 3. That's what matters, not how he looks doing it.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: SkipPass71 on December 08, 2017, 04:00:01 pm
I'm one of the worst "over-raters" out there...though I still believe Raut is gonna be a keeper.  As for Havsa he did some real damage last year vs some good A-10 competition-both from distance and with drives.  This year so far...more style over substance I'm afraid.



That rendition of the national anthem had everyone ( all 500 of us ) shaking our heads in disbelief. And then everything went downhill from there
 

As for Bay Ridge, yes indeed, JN looked especially dyspeptic during the anthem!


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: LXRF on December 08, 2017, 04:06:13 pm
I'm one of the worst "over-raters" out there...though I still believe Raut is gonna be a keeper.  As for Havsa he did some real damage last year vs some good A-10 competition-both from distance and with drives.  This year so far...more style over substance I'm afraid.

 

As for Bay Ridge, yes indeed, JN looked especially dyspeptic during the anthem!

We had a clear view of the look on the faces of the Harvard players.  It was as if they had been captured by a cult in the Bronx, no less.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: Vinseiro2 on December 08, 2017, 04:53:15 pm
That's silly, 6ft 2 versus 6ft 4, they are all playing the same position. I could not care less how Havsa looks out there physically, it is usually irrelevant, what matters is how you play. And I totally disagree that he isnt playing well because others dont know what they are doing. Havsa is running around and dribbling aimlessly with the basketball, not showing any direction or purpose. When he shoots, he is 0 for the season from 3. That's what matters, not how he looks doing it.

   Some of these posters just want to keep hope alive rather than pass judgment on what they are seeing.  This ain't the level to do that.  Like you said, Next.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: ace93 on December 08, 2017, 05:07:53 pm
   Some of these posters just want to keep hope alive rather than pass judgment on what they are seeing.  This ain't the level to do that.  Like you said, Next.

I do that with some posters and am given a hard time!

BTW, I agree with most of what you have said lately. I am starting to get worried.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: drunkle on December 08, 2017, 05:57:09 pm
   Some of these posters just want to keep hope alive rather than pass judgment on what they are seeing.  This ain't the level to do that.  Like you said, Next.

BS.

Go read the last few pages of this thread.  I countered this narrative last year.  We went 7-8 A-10 and had a short at .500 even after 0-3.  Everyone was saying 0 wins or 2 wins.

http://fordhamfans.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,10627.480.html


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: Ram Bam 76 on December 08, 2017, 05:58:54 pm
That's silly, 6ft 2 versus 6ft 4, they are all playing the same position. I could not care less how Havsa looks out there physically, it is usually irrelevant, what matters is how you play. And I totally disagree that he isnt playing well because others dont know what they are doing. Havsa is running around and dribbling aimlessly with the basketball, not showing any direction or purpose. When he shoots, he is 0 for the season from 3. That's what matters, not how he looks doing it.
I'm sorry, but you have to blame the coach for Havsa's crazy dribbling, stupid time-outs after we score, lack of good in-bound plays, failure to coach at crunch time, failure to tell the inbounder that he MUST get the ball in quickly or call a time-out when the game is on the line, failure to see when the game is slipping away, failure to teach the team that possessions cannot be wasted by waiting until the very end of the shot clock, etc. He has to be held accountable for the bad offense. What does he teach the team in practice? It's a shame. We gave away games that should have been won.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: SkipPass71 on December 08, 2017, 06:08:01 pm
We had a clear view of the look on the faces of the Harvard players.  It was as if they had been captured by a cult in the Bronx, no less.
 

+1 LXRF-Hey maybe that's what it was-a cult induced trance that had them playing so poorly.  Unfortunately for us, they snapped out of it at the worst possible time!

BTW-good humor when the band serenaded the kid at the end with "safety school" as he stepped to the line.  Didn't work-as you know he sank all three.

Thank God for the good sized pep band, cheerleader and dance squads.  The RHG would have a much lonelier feeling without them.

 


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: RAM71 on December 08, 2017, 06:08:50 pm
I'm sorry, but you have to blame the coach for Havsa's crazy dribbling, stupid time-outs after we score, lack of good in-bound plays, failure to coach at crunch time, failure to tell the inbounder that he MUST get the ball in quickly or call a time-out when the game is on the line, failure to see when the game is slipping away, failure to teach the team that possessions cannot be wasted by waiting until the very end of the shot clock, etc. He has to be held accountable for the bad offense. What does he teach the team in practice? It's a shame. We gave away games that should have been won.

Also, I was told a couple of years ago that Crawford coaches the D and JN coaches the offense. 


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: SkipPass71 on December 08, 2017, 06:17:35 pm
That's silly, 6ft 2 versus 6ft 4, they are all playing the same position. I could not care less how Havsa looks out there physically, it is usually irrelevant, what matters is how you play. And I totally disagree that he isnt playing well because others dont know what they are doing. Havsa is running around and dribbling aimlessly with the basketball, not showing any direction or purpose. When he shoots, he is 0 for the season from 3. That's what matters, not how he looks doing it.
I'm sorry, but you have to blame the coach for Havsa's crazy dribbling, stupid time-outs after we score, lack of good in-bound plays, failure to coach at crunch time, failure to tell the inbounder that he MUST get the ball in quickly or call a time-out when the game is on the line, failure to see when the game is slipping away, failure to teach the team that possessions cannot be wasted by waiting until the very end of the shot clock, etc. He has to be held accountable for the bad offense. What does he teach the team in practice? It's a shame. We gave away games that should have been won.

BOTH of these guys have some really valid points/observations.

P.S. Sorry for whatever I did to screw-up the format of whatever I was trying to say in my previous post. 


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: Bay Ridge on December 08, 2017, 06:46:00 pm
Ram 71 , I was told the same thing about Crawford coaching the D and when he has given presentations , that's what it has been all about.
P.S. He's a super nice guy


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: vinnys on December 08, 2017, 09:23:11 pm
Also, I was told a couple of years ago that Crawford coaches the D and JN coaches the offense. 

well then, thank God for Crawford      give him a raise   


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: Kaup on December 09, 2017, 09:12:33 am
   I disagree on all counts.  The coaching staff brought in Evans and has multiple similar guards coming in next season , so that tells you something about what they're thinking.
That has nothing to do with what I said.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: 85 on December 09, 2017, 09:19:15 am
I'm sorry, but you have to blame the coach for Havsa's crazy dribbling, stupid time-outs after we score, lack of good in-bound plays, failure to coach at crunch time, failure to tell the inbounder that he MUST get the ball in quickly or call a time-out when the game is on the line, failure to see when the game is slipping away, failure to teach the team that possessions cannot be wasted by waiting until the very end of the shot clock, etc. He has to be held accountable for the bad offense. What does he teach the team in practice? It's a shame. We gave away games that should have been won.

I dont disagree but this is A-10 basketball. You have a wealth of international experience. You are not a robot. The coach's game plan stinks, no doubt, but a little court awareness and common sense. Its on the player to know the shot clock. Bad play calling.....on the coach.......Dribbling aimlessly and taking a shot clock violation at end of game.....on the player.....at least hoist a 3 in desperation...or call a timeout when nothing is there and there are 10 seconds left.....lot of player options....running out the clock is just ridiculous....


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: Kaup on December 09, 2017, 09:40:19 am
That's silly, 6ft 2 versus 6ft 4, they are all playing the same position. I could not care less how Havsa looks out there physically, it is usually irrelevant, what matters is how you play. And I totally disagree that he isnt playing well because others dont know what they are doing. Havsa is running around and dribbling aimlessly with the basketball, not showing any direction or purpose. When he shoots, he is 0 for the season from 3. That's what matters, not how he looks doing it.
Yeah that 0 fer is a real eye sore on our roster of sharp shooters.  Yes he dribbles too much and doesn't seem to have an objective on offense.  He looks like he's playing pick up out there.  That's mental.  Havsa is less a combo guard and more a classic PG, so if guys aren't making shots, or don't know how to move without the ball and put themselves in scoring positions, he looks worse than he actually is.  He's not good enough for us to overlook his lack of court sense, but my point stands that his vital statistics and physical talents are perfectly fine.  That said, he does need to figure out how to put it all together on the floor.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: 85 on December 09, 2017, 09:45:59 am
  He's not good enough for us to overlook his lack of court sense, but my point stands that his vital statistics and physical talents are perfectly fine.  That said, he does need to figure out how to put it all together on the floor.

Agreed. It's perplexing.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: kenman on December 09, 2017, 10:02:16 am
Havsa leads the team in assists per minutes - 12/103. I'm sure that's why the coach is playing him, while hoping he'll get back close to last year's shooting - 22/46, .478 total, incl. 8/24 from three. And, as has been pointed out, most of his PT came in conference play.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: 85 on December 09, 2017, 10:11:49 am
I'm one of the worst "over-raters" out there...though I still believe Raut is gonna be a keeper.  A

See definition of "Forhdamist"  you fit right in with us!


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: RamFan78 on December 09, 2017, 10:13:00 am
Havsa leads the team in assists per minutes - 12/103. I'm sure that's why the coach is playing him, while hoping he'll get back close to last year's shooting - 22/46, .478 total, incl. 8/24 from three. And, as has been pointed out, most of his PT came in conference play.

For full disclosure purposes, he was 4-4 in one game which puts him at 4-20 in all the rest. One could argue the one game was an outlier given everything. I am not trying to downplay things here but when you mention stats sometimes you need to look behind the numbers. One good game can distort the overall stats especially when looking at a player with somewhat limited minutes.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: drunkle on December 09, 2017, 11:00:04 am
For full disclosure purposes, he was 4-4 in one game which puts him at 4-20 in all the rest. One could argue the one game was an outlier given everything. I am not trying to downplay things here but when you mention stats sometimes you need to look behind the numbers. One good game can distort the overall stats especially when looking at a player with somewhat limited minutes.

If you add in his international play the last few years he's more a 25-30% guy, and that was his scouting rep. But he was considered a good point and excellent passer. That's been borne out based on the eyeball test, but too many turnovers and some perplexing decision making.  He looks better free lancing in open court then in half court.  Hopefully he gets the hang of it.  And maybe he can improve his shooting too.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: RAM71 on December 09, 2017, 11:12:27 am
For full disclosure purposes, he was 4-4 in one game which puts him at 4-20 in all the rest. One could argue the one game was an outlier given everything. I am not trying to downplay things here but when you mention stats sometimes you need to look behind the numbers. One good game can distort the overall stats especially when looking at a player with somewhat limited minutes.

Don't know about his stats but the eye test tells me he has been awful.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: Vinseiro2 on December 09, 2017, 11:23:23 am
BTW, I agree with most of what you have said lately. I am starting to get worried.

   Jodete!  You'll see that it's nice to be right  >:D

   Seriously, I think we are in good hands with Neu/Crawford.  It's not easy to instill a culture of defense.  It's much easier to improve recruiting, which I fully expect them to do.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: Vinseiro2 on December 09, 2017, 11:30:19 am
   I don't think some of you guys have seen a lot of basketball outside of what we put on the floor.  That, combined with a reluctance to dismiss our own players, leads to making excuses and rationalizing hopes and expectations on selective statistics.  Better players should be on their way, period. 


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: Vinseiro2 on December 09, 2017, 11:39:33 am
BS.

Go read the last few pages of this thread.  I countered this narrative last year.  We went 7-8 A-10 and had a short at .500 even after 0-3.  Everyone was saying 0 wins or 2 wins.

http://fordhamfans.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,10627.480.html

   And we've followed up that season with a putrid OOS this season, so what?  We got a shot at going 13-19 again, let's celebrate?!?


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: Vinseiro2 on December 09, 2017, 11:42:08 am
   And we've followed up that season with a putrid OOC this season, so what?  We got a shot at going 13-19 again, let's celebrate?!?


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: drunkle on December 09, 2017, 12:22:00 pm
   And we've followed up that season with a putrid OOS this season, so what?  We got a shot at going 13-19 again, let's celebrate?!?

Yes and putrid last year.  And 7 possessions from being 7-1.  Which was the point last year, too. Putrid OOC and start to season. You call it rationalizing. I call it rational.  I pointed that out last year, when everyone said 0-16.  Old Coach said I was talking moral victories. Kid from NY said so what, close losses are losses.  Basketball can be a close run thing we all know. This has been horrible ball, and yet, as awful as that, the team has been in games. I said it a million times slight improvement would mean a lot.

And right after that 6-10, 0-3 we won 7 of 12 and that was fun, no?  At 7-8 with a shot to finish above 500 in conference for the first time in years? Young players like Havsa and Ohams contributing? Beating #34, #50 #86 kenpom? Winning on the road? Talking seeding? GW and GM games sucked but there was some great ball, and it sucked because they made you care. Well, it made me care. I get the feeling some would rather wallow.  At least 13-19 and 7-11 isn't 2-26.

The point is it looked just as bad last year if not worse.  I don't make a prediction how it turns out but we improved significantly each of the last 2 years over the course of the year. Maybe not this year. Sure, we need more and better players.  These last two games stunk. The 8 guys out there can't quit. I am simply hopeful they get better, and guys like Havsa, JC, etc have played better. I don't think it irrational to think they can improve.  In fact they probably will.  Whether that's enough to win a lot of games who knows? 


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: JCMB on December 09, 2017, 01:36:56 pm
   ...Better players should be on their way, period. 

I was wondering why you feel so confident about this?


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: RamFan78 on December 09, 2017, 01:37:11 pm
Yes and putrid last year.  And 7 possessions from being 7-1.  Which was the point last year, too. Putrid OOC and start to season. You call it rationalizing. I call it rational.  I pointed that out last year, when everyone said 0-16.  Old Coach said I was talking moral victories. Kid from NY said so what, close losses are losses.  Basketball can be a close run thing we all know. This has been horrible ball, and yet, as awful as that, the team has been in games. I said it a million times slight improvement would mean a lot.

And right after that 6-10, 0-3 we won 7 of 12 and that was fun, no?  At 7-8 with a shot to finish above 500 in conference for the first time in years? Young players like Havsa and Ohams contributing? Beating #34, #50 #86 kenpom? Winning on the road? Talking seeding? GW and GM games sucked but there was some great ball, and it sucked because they made you care. Well, it made me care. I get the feeling some would rather wallow.  At least 13-19 and 7-11 isn't 2-26.

The point is it looked just as bad last year if not worse.  I don't make a prediction how it turns out but we improved significantly each of the last 2 years over the course of the year. Maybe not this year. Sure, we need more and better players.  These last two games stunk. The 8 guys out there can't quit. I am simply hopeful they get better, and guys like Havsa, JC, etc have played better. I don't think it irrational to think they can improve.  In fact they probably will.  Whether that's enough to win a lot of games who knows? 

The talent was better last year plain and simple. Every year stands on its own.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: drunkle on December 09, 2017, 02:30:47 pm
The talent was better last year plain and simple. Every year stands on its own.

No one thought so January 10th. Tavares has improved. Slanina is healthy. Losing two guys stinks.  I'd give Evans and Hicks a chance to improve. I don't make grand pronouncements early. It may be a little worse.  Everyone Abe up on them too soon last year. Making comments about 13-19 misses the point. You don't turn things around overnight. Last year ended up with some positives and this year may too. And can be a building block.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: LXRF on December 10, 2017, 12:11:01 pm
No one thought so January 10th. Tavares has improved. Slanina is healthy. Losing two guys stinks.  I'd give Evans and Hicks a chance to improve. I don't make grand pronouncements early. It may be a little worse.  Everyone Abe up on them too soon last year. Making comments about 13-19 misses the point. You don't turn things around overnight. Last year ended up with some positives and this year may too. And can be a building block.

When Evans and Hicks adjust to the Div. 1 game, which there's no reason to think they won't, we'll have at least 6 out of 8 productive players.  A thin roster for sure, but barring injuries one that can win some games.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: Vinseiro2 on December 10, 2017, 06:35:27 pm
The point is it looked just as bad last year if not worse. 

Whether that's enough to win a lot of games who knows? 

   So, never mind that we've sucked early two years in a row, we should take comfort in knowing that we may rebound to 13-19?

   You're always going to find improved statistics, but isn't the point to win games???


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: Vinseiro2 on December 10, 2017, 06:37:16 pm
I was wondering why you feel so confident about this?

1.  Our coaches aren't dummies - they know that they have to get better players here

2.  The kids coming in are an improvement over many of our players 


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: FU85 on December 10, 2017, 08:39:35 pm
1.  Our coaches aren't dummies - they know that they have to get better players here

2.  The kids coming in are an improvement over many of our players 

     Vin,
     Agree with the first point but disagree with the second because we have no idea what we got until they show up and play. I only wish I had a quarter for every time I have heard the kids coming in are........... Over the last 36 years of watching FU hoops.


Title: Re: Harvard @ Fordham Pregame/In-game 12/6/17 7PM
Post by: drunkle on December 10, 2017, 11:01:14 pm

   So, never mind that we've sucked early two years in a row, we should take comfort in knowing that we may rebound to 13-19?

   You're always going to find improved statistics, but isn't the point to win games???

Your team sucked giant ass for 25 years. They were 7-8 in conference after starting 0-3. Two years ago they went to the post-season. You had a .267 winning percentage over the previous 21 years prior to the new coach.   If you didn't enjoy it, too bad. Go solve it.  Build a new arena or pay a McD burger boy to come.

BTW, it always works this way. Get a coach who can make you good with what you can get and then get better players and then get really good.