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Is Villanova A Good Model for Fordham Athletics?


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Rich93
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« Reply #150 on: April 14, 2016, 02:33:02 pm »

I 100% agree with you. The problem is that people have looked at our basketball team for the past 20 years and then said.. "dang, Fordham's athletic program sucks". Every team has unfairly been grouped into the success, or lack thereof, with basketball. Casual fans aren't going to look at how our secondary sports are doing. they just wont. Must dedicated fans wont either. not sure that will ever change.

Not too long ago football also was a laughing stock going 1-10 competing in one of the worst conference in FCS so be careful about saying other sports were lumped unfairly into the lack of success.  85 is one of the few people who look beyond the prominent sports, to be honest I do not and think what primarily matters is mens basketball and football.  Mens basketball is the highest profile sport (I am talking attention outside of Fordham) in Fordham University because it plays in Div. I in the 7th best conference in the nation.  That is going to garner more attention than any other sport whether we are winning losing or somewhere in between.  Football has done a great job of maximizing the attention available to an FCS PL program but there is a ceiling because it is FCS and the Patriot League.  Ideally, we keep improving in basketball and keep winning in football as those sports are the driving factors in athletics.         
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« Reply #151 on: April 14, 2016, 02:41:32 pm »

The thread title is about modeling our athletic department after yours. But a close look indicates that we are pretty much on a par across the board, if not even a little ahead, sans of course men's basketball.


That's like me comparing my wife to Sophia Vergara .... and saying "if not for Sophia's eye's, chest and behind!"     Wink

Seriously though. Peace on the progress we've made in sports...it's real, it's praiseworthy and it is appropriate in the short term.

But a basketball Div 1 title blows away normal progress and A10/Patriot conference titles ..... there's no comparison at that level.

Put another way .... until we see kids in street gangs, being arrested ..... and proudly flashing their maroons Ram gear.... we're not in the big leagues like Villanova and Georgetown!  That my friend is "Arrived Baby"
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« Reply #152 on: April 14, 2016, 02:45:24 pm »

We are now in a better position to push things to the next level. Coaches and the new AD have proven you can win here and can attract good players. Now capitalize on it.  The winning has been in the short term, yes, but it also coincides with Frank's departure. Culture change. Personnel trumps facilities. Maybe not by a lot these days, but it does.  Fordham wasnt jsut bad with Frank and company , Fordham was national embarrassment bad. An 0-32 season in womens hoops. a 1-10 football team and a 2-28 or thereabouts men's hoops team ....a few coaching changes, a new AD. some new blood and its all it took to at least stabilize things...and then some... now its time to move forward...
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« Reply #153 on: April 14, 2016, 02:51:42 pm »

I think in looking at Villanova as a model for our program you need to take it a step beyond winning and losing.  Historically Villanova has usually been pretty good or better in all of their programs.  If they've had a consistent dog, I don't know about it and I have two brother-in-laws who are grads.  Successful athletics, especially basketball is primary to Villanova, it's certainly part of their identity.  I would bet there are millions of people who know nothing about Villanova but they know 'Nova basketball.  It may not be Notre Dame football but it's the same institutional relationship.  There have been a couple of small missteps over the years but is by far their basketball best marketing vehicle.  It may not define Villanova but it sets them apart.  I think ultimately that is what most of us would like to see athletics do for Fordham.
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« Reply #154 on: April 14, 2016, 03:26:28 pm »

Not too long ago football also was a laughing stock going 1-10 competing in one of the worst conference in FCS so be careful about saying other sports were lumped unfairly into the lack of success.  85 is one of the few people who look beyond the prominent sports, to be honest I do not and think what primarily matters is mens basketball and football.  Mens basketball is the highest profile sport (I am talking attention outside of Fordham) in Fordham University because it plays in Div. I in the 7th best conference in the nation.  That is going to garner more attention than any other sport whether we are winning losing or somewhere in between.  Football has done a great job of maximizing the attention available to an FCS PL program but there is a ceiling because it is FCS and the Patriot League.  Ideally, we keep improving in basketball and keep winning in football as those sports are the driving factors in athletics.         

I'm not really sure I understand your post. I agree that basketball is the highest profile sport.

It's the A-10, its MSG, Barclays, NCAA Tournament etc. People that are casually associated with the school are going to look at our basketball program and judge everyone else on them. Many people I know didn't know of the FB teams recent success because they just assumed they were terrible because the basketball team had been so terrible. I wish it wasn't that way, but it is.

I'm not talking about anyone on this board, obviously. Everyone here generally keeps up to date on the Athletic Program in its entirety and is at least aware of how our programs are doing. I'd bet most Fordham people have no clue we even have a sailing team!

I'm not a college basketball fan. I'm not a NBA fan. I enjoy watching Fordham's Bball team and I root for them because I believe their success will translate into even more exposure and excitement around the FB team. I also have a lot of pride in my school, and I realize that basketball is key to our overall exposure.
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« Reply #155 on: April 14, 2016, 03:38:43 pm »

I think in looking at Villanova as a model for our program you need to take it a step beyond winning and losing.  Historically Villanova has usually been pretty good or better in all of their programs.  If they've had a consistent dog, I don't know about it and I have two brother-in-laws who are grads.  Successful athletics, especially basketball is primary to Villanova, it's certainly part of their identity.  I would bet there are millions of people who know nothing about Villanova but they know 'Nova basketball.  It may not be Notre Dame football but it's the same institutional relationship.  There have been a couple of small missteps over the years but is by far their basketball best marketing vehicle.  It may not define Villanova but it sets them apart.  I think ultimately that is what most of us would like to see athletics do for Fordham.

I think that is all true Coach .... basketball, is their top identifying feature.

What is ours?

It seems like this discussion is getting stuck on the word "model"  ..... which might seem synonymous with "copy them".  Since our other factors (location/history/reputation/alumni/etc)  are sufficiently different it is always safe to say "no"

But if someone asked me "Would you be happy to have their recent results in basketball and football?" ..... I'd laugh, make sure they weren't punking me..... get assurance we are talking about the university on The Mainline, the one with a FCS football trophy and a couple of March Madness titles ..... and say YES.

I might even give up gems like the Sailing program for their revenue sport outcomes.  Wink

Sorry Joe! 
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« Reply #156 on: April 14, 2016, 03:38:48 pm »

Many people I know didn't know of the FB teams recent success because they just assumed they were terrible because the basketball team had been so terrible. I wish it wasn't that way, but it is.

Are you sure it is not more because it is FCS and how it does not get much coverage?
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« Reply #157 on: April 14, 2016, 03:45:07 pm »

I'm not really sure I understand your post. I agree that basketball is the highest profile sport.

It's the A-10, its MSG, Barclays, NCAA Tournament etc. People that are casually associated with the school are going to look at our basketball program and judge everyone else on them. Many people I know didn't know of the FB teams recent success because they just assumed they were terrible because the basketball team had been so terrible. I wish it wasn't that way, but it is.

I'm not talking about anyone on this board, obviously. Everyone here generally keeps up to date on the Athletic Program in its entirety and is at least aware of how our programs are doing. I'd bet most Fordham people have no clue we even have a sailing team!

I'm not a college basketball fan. I'm not a NBA fan. I enjoy watching Fordham's Bball team and I root for them because I believe their success will translate into even more exposure and excitement around the FB team. I also have a lot of pride in my school, and I realize that basketball is key to our overall exposure.

I do not see  how basketball's record would in any way impact people knowing about football's success.  We have gotten some good coverage for football over the past few years and if you are casually associated with the school and interested in FCS football you will know we are doing well.  Any lack of interest or not as much interest as we would like is more likely related to the level we play at.  
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« Reply #158 on: April 14, 2016, 03:54:38 pm »

Are you sure it is not more because it is FCS and how it does not get much coverage?

That's definitely a big part of it - absolutely. FB is not going to just garner attention on its own. It has without a doubt improved over the past few years, but there's still a lot of room to grow. My point, and maybe I'm not making it clear, is that I believe the casual Fordham fan will become more interested in the FB team and how they're doing if the basketball team continues to do well. The success of the basketball team will/should create a bigger sense of school spirit and pride. That should translate into people becoming more interested in the other sports including and probably most notably the football team.

3 years ago school spirit was non-existent. its improved with the success of the FB team, but the success of the basketball team could take it to another level. 
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« Reply #159 on: April 14, 2016, 03:56:27 pm »

I do not see  how basketball's record would in any way impact people knowing about football's success.  We have gotten some good coverage for football over the past few years and if you are casually associated with the school and interested in FCS football you will know we are doing well.  Any lack of interest or not as much interest as we would like is more likely related to the level we play at.  

As I stated in my response to Ace.. I think basketball's record will create more school spirit and pride in Fordham athletics. People who otherwise wouldn't care about sports, may get wrapped up in it and start showing up more.
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« Reply #160 on: April 14, 2016, 03:56:37 pm »

That's definitely a big part of it - absolutely. FB is not going to just garner attention on its own. It has without a doubt improved over the past few years, but there's still a lot of room to grow. My point, and maybe I'm not making it clear, is that I believe the casual Fordham fan will become more interested in the FB team and how they're doing if the basketball team continues to do well. The success of the basketball team will/should create a bigger sense of school spirit and pride. That should translate into people becoming more interested in the other sports including and probably most notably the football team.

3 years ago school spirit was non-existent. its improved with the success of the FB team, but the success of the basketball team could take it to another level.

Got ya. I agree with that.
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« Reply #161 on: April 14, 2016, 04:04:59 pm »

That's definitely a big part of it - absolutely. FB is not going to just garner attention on its own. It has without a doubt improved over the past few years, but there's still a lot of room to grow. My point, and maybe I'm not making it clear, is that I believe the casual Fordham fan will become more interested in the FB team and how they're doing if the basketball team continues to do well. The success of the basketball team will/should create a bigger sense of school spirit and pride. That should translate into people becoming more interested in the other sports including and probably most notably the football team.

3 years ago school spirit was non-existent. its improved with the success of the FB team, but the success of the basketball team could take it to another level. 


Agreed. 
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« Reply #162 on: April 14, 2016, 04:45:28 pm »

I think that is all true Coach .... basketball, is their top identifying feature.

What is ours?


Probably Vince Lombardi. 
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« Reply #163 on: April 14, 2016, 04:53:21 pm »

will be interesting to see how college football evoles and the FCS programs survive as the Power 5 seprates itself from the pack.  One of the positives of this Nova b-ball win was the statement that you do not need to be a power 5 team (and I am so glad Jay Wright claified that power 5 is ONLY a football term)to win.

With reagrds to football, I personally ennjoy where Fordham and Nova are at.  We considered a move up to D1 and I am extremely thankful it did not pan out for a variety of reasons.  That being said, I feel, at least from Nova's standpoint, playing at the at the FCS level really limits fan/alumni interest, which is a shame. I think our new AD will put much greater emphasis on marketing the program and lets hope it pays dividends.  How is Fordham's fan interest in football?  Similar to Nova? There really is a pretty stale atmosphere at our games in my opinion.  I guess I am comparing it to D!, but we sometimes only have a few thousand people in the stands.   I know neither of our institution is comaprable at some of the larger FCS schools in the midwest and west where they seem to sell out stadiums. I guess when you are one of the main shows in town, its easier for those schools to garner interest.   Would really be nice if interest increased at Nova and other small to mid sized Notheast schools; wonder if increasing TV exposure will help.  FCS is a good product!
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« Reply #164 on: April 15, 2016, 12:42:35 am »

I agree -- FCS is a good product. In many ways, it is what college football should be -- an affordable, familiar weekend event where alumni, fans, parents, etc., can root student-athletes on in competition. Power 5 ball in some cases has become a destination tourist event, where folks spend ridiculous money to see an event which is connected to the sponsoring university in name only.

Top QB pick in this year's draft is likely to be from an FCS school.

Problem for us is, of 179 major media markets in this country, NYC ranks dead last in ratings for college football. we'd have to find some way to make FCS football cool.
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« Reply #165 on: April 15, 2016, 09:24:31 am »

I agree -- FCS is a good product. In many ways, it is what college football should be -- an affordable, familiar weekend event where alumni, fans, parents, etc., can root student-athletes on in competition. Power 5 ball in some cases has become a destination tourist event, where folks spend ridiculous money to see an event which is connected to the sponsoring university in name only.

Top QB pick in this year's draft is likely to be from an FCS school.

Problem for us is, of 179 major media markets in this country, NYC ranks dead last in ratings for college football. we'd have to find some way to make FCS football cool.

The machers in the NYC media ignore all college sports, even Rutgers football. How do you pierce the ivory towers on 6th avenue? 

Someone mentioned homepersons in team gear. I have yet to see a Fordham Hat or Shirt anywhere but the bookstore. LIDS Modell's etc. Someone in Sports marketing is not doing their job.
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« Reply #166 on: April 15, 2016, 09:56:15 am »

The machers in the NYC media ignore all college sports, even Rutgers football. How do you pierce the ivory towers on 6th avenue? 

Someone mentioned homepersons in team gear. I have yet to see a Fordham Hat or Shirt anywhere but the bookstore. LIDS Modell's etc. Someone in Sports marketing is not doing their job.
When the Rams are in the NCAA tournament next year, Modell's and LIDS will discover Rose Hill. 
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« Reply #167 on: April 15, 2016, 10:37:16 am »

I agree -- FCS is a good product. In many ways, it is what college football should be -- an affordable, familiar weekend event where alumni, fans, parents, etc., can root student-athletes on in competition. Power 5 ball in some cases has become a destination tourist event, where folks spend ridiculous money to see an event which is connected to the sponsoring university in name only.

Top QB pick in this year's draft is likely to be from an FCS school.

Problem for us is, of 179 major media markets in this country, NYC ranks dead last in ratings for college football. we'd have to find some way to make FCS football cool.

You'll never make FCS football cool in NYC. If the football team can get students and alums excited - and at the games - that is as good as it gets. NYC isn't interested in Alabama-LSU but they are going to turn out for Fordham-Bucknell? Based on the few football games I've gone to there must be a lot of students and alums (those that are sports fans) watching big time football on TV instead of turning out in person to see the football team. That is why basketball has a unique opportunity. It plays at the highest level in the sport and can receive all of the attention and excitement that goes with it. Football's ceiling is much, much lower than basketball. It has a loyal, but incredibly small following. If the basketball team ever had one-half of football's recent success (on a relative basis), the excitement would be ten times that for football. Just look at Nova....
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« Reply #168 on: April 15, 2016, 10:55:46 am »

You'll never make FCS football cool in NYC. If the football team can get students and alums excited - and at the games - that is as good as it gets. NYC isn't interested in Alabama-LSU but they are going to turn out for Fordham-Bucknell? Based on the few football games I've gone to there must be a lot of students and alums (those that are sports fans) watching big time football on TV instead of turning out in person to see the football team. That is why basketball has a unique opportunity. It plays at the highest level in the sport and can receive all of the attention and excitement that goes with it. Football's ceiling is much, much lower than basketball. It has a loyal, but incredibly small following. If the basketball team ever had one-half of football's recent success (on a relative basis), the excitement would be ten times that for football. Just look at Nova....

incredibly small following?  I think you're wrong there (relative to Fordham sports obviously). Take a look at attendance numbers v. basketball. I would argue that the FB fans outnumber the basketball fans pretty handily right now. Season Ticket orders would be interesting to compare as well.
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« Reply #169 on: April 15, 2016, 11:07:07 am »

incredibly small following?  I think you're wrong there (relative to Fordham sports obviously). Take a look at attendance numbers v. basketball. I would argue that the FB fans outnumber the basketball fans pretty handily right now. Season Ticket orders would be interesting to compare as well.

That is a different argument. 85 is not comparing attendance of football vs. basketball. Both have small followings, but the potential for growth for hoops is much greater.
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« Reply #170 on: April 15, 2016, 11:11:14 am »

incredibly small following?  I think you're wrong there (relative to Fordham sports obviously). Take a look at attendance numbers v. basketball. I would argue that the FB fans outnumber the basketball fans pretty handily right now. Season Ticket orders would be interesting to compare as well.

ok - basketball currently has an incredibly, incredibly small following. this was in the context of NYC interest but students/alums aren't getting on line to see either team. Basketball and football both play in very small venues - and a ticket is almost never a problem.
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« Reply #171 on: April 15, 2016, 11:20:12 am »

will be interesting to see how college football evoles and the FCS programs survive as the Power 5 seprates itself from the pack.  One of the positives of this Nova b-ball win was the statement that you do not need to be a power 5 team (and I am so glad Jay Wright claified that power 5 is ONLY a football term)to win.

With reagrds to football, I personally ennjoy where Fordham and Nova are at.  We considered a move up to D1 and I am extremely thankful it did not pan out for a variety of reasons.  That being said, I feel, at least from Nova's standpoint, playing at the at the FCS level really limits fan/alumni interest, which is a shame. I think our new AD will put much greater emphasis on marketing the program and lets hope it pays dividends.  How is Fordham's fan interest in football?  Similar to Nova? There really is a pretty stale atmosphere at our games in my opinion.  I guess I am comparing it to D!, but we sometimes only have a few thousand people in the stands.   I know neither of our institution is comaprable at some of the larger FCS schools in the midwest and west where they seem to sell out stadiums. I guess when you are one of the main shows in town, its easier for those schools to garner interest.   Would really be nice if interest increased at Nova and other small to mid sized Notheast schools; wonder if increasing TV exposure will help.  FCS is a good product!

Jay Wright is wrong a on that score.  The Power 5 is institutional, not just football and that will become clearer over time.  The Power 5 Conferences are already asserting themselves (see the stipends that are being added to traditional scholarships).  More to come, there.  Villanova and the BE and probably the AAC will get a seat at the table at some point because there are some decent football programs that there is money or the potential to make money.  The resurrected BE got a huge break with Villanova winning it all this year.  If they can get a few more programs to perform at a top 25 level consistently, they'll get a voice when the Power 5 starts consolidating their muscle in basketball.

  
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« Reply #172 on: April 15, 2016, 11:57:17 am »

Jay Wright is wrong a on that score.  The Power 5 is institutional, not just football and that will become clearer over time.  The Power 5 Conferences are already asserting themselves (see the stipends that are being added to traditional scholarships).  More to come, there.  Villanova and the BE and probably the AAC will get a seat at the table at some point because there are some decent football programs that there is money or the potential to make money.  The resurrected BE got a huge break with Villanova winning it all this year.  If they can get a few more programs to perform at a top 25 level consistently, they'll get a voice when the Power 5 starts consolidating their muscle in basketball.

  

Agreed it was huge for the Big East. Early poll for next year has Nova #3, Xavier #5 and Creighton and Butler in top 25. They need to force themselves into the conversation. Other non-Power 5 are St Marys, Rhode Island, Gonzaga and UConn.
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« Reply #173 on: April 15, 2016, 12:08:05 pm »

    Jay Wright is wrong a on that score.  The Power 5 is institutional, not just football and that will become clearer over time.  The Power 5 Conferences are already asserting themselves (see the stipends that are being added to traditional scholarships).  More to come, there.  Villanova and the BE and probably the AAC will get a seat at the table at some point because there are some decent football programs that there is money or the potential to make money.  The resurrected BE got a huge break with Villanova winning it all this year.  If they can get a few more programs to perform at a top 25 level consistently, they'll get a voice when the Power 5 starts consolidating their muscle in basketball.

      

    I think you are right about the Power 5 Coach.

    I'm interested in the question "How will that shake out for the private, more elite schools in the current Power 5?"

    -Will they have the resources to keep up with the huge alumni,  government backed athletic programs?
    -Will they even want to stay with them ....  if it becomes even nastier to run with them?

    My order of vulnerability, or struggle, in a juiced up Power 5 world

    Vulnerable, Do we really want to compete with Michigan and Texas?

    Northwestern
    Vanderbilt
    Boston College
    Wake Forest


    Stong, motivated, but still concerned about state behemoths .... worried about the full portfolio of sports
    TCU
    Baylor
    Miami
    Syracuse


    No problem... enough donations to do what we want

    USC
    Stanford
    Duke
    Notre Dame


    I still recall a few years ago the Pres of Notre Dame questioned their desire to up the arms race to stay in a Power 5 world. I didn't really believe his total sincerity. And even if he was serious, his alumni would get after him to have a conversion....but it was an interesting comment.

    My long term prediction is the Power 5 will gain strength, but at some point overplay their hand, and some of the TV dollars will start to flow to the more cost effective "normal universities that have amateur athletes"   (Tulane, Navy, SMU, etc) It will be more cost effective if the Power 5 become too greedy.
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    « Reply #174 on: April 15, 2016, 12:14:01 pm »

    They'll want to keep cashing the checks.  They made a huge investment in football, they can't fall back.  They can stay relevant and do what it takes or they can drop the programs and no Power 5 Conference will continue to do business with a partner thats not "All In".
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    « Reply #175 on: April 15, 2016, 12:40:05 pm »

      I think you are right about the Power 5 Coach.

      I'm interested in the question "How will that shake out for the private, more elite schools in the current Power 5?"

      -Will they have the resources to keep up with the huge alumni,  government backed athletic programs?
      -Will they even want to stay with them ....  if it becomes even nastier to run with them?

      My order of vulnerability, or struggle, in a juiced up Power 5 world

      Vulnerable, Do we really want to compete with Michigan and Texas?

      Northwestern
      Vanderbilt
      Boston College
      Wake Forest


      Stong, motivated, but still concerned about state behemoths .... worried about the full portfolio of sports
      TCU
      Baylor
      Miami
      Syracuse


      No problem... enough donations to do what we want

      USC
      Stanford
      Duke
      Notre Dame


      I still recall a few years ago the Pres of Notre Dame questioned their desire to up the arms race to stay in a Power 5 world. I didn't really believe his total sincerity. And even if he was serious, his alumni would get after him to have a conversion....but it was an interesting comment.

      My long term prediction is the Power 5 will gain strength, but at some point overplay their hand, and some of the TV dollars will start to flow to the more cost effective "normal universities that have amateur athletes"   (Tulane, Navy, SMU, etc) It will be more cost effective if the Power 5 become too greedy.


      One thing, state governments do not like supporting sports. But they do love going to the games.

      The flagship schools will get funding, maybe. Most are planning for the day when the tap goes dry.
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      « Reply #176 on: April 15, 2016, 01:00:48 pm »

      Jay Wright is wrong a on that score.  The Power 5 is institutional, not just football and that will become clearer over time.  The Power 5 Conferences are already asserting themselves (see the stipends that are being added to traditional scholarships).  More to come, there.  Villanova and the BE and probably the AAC will get a seat at the table at some point because there are some decent football programs that there is money or the potential to make money.  The resurrected BE got a huge break with Villanova winning it all this year.  If they can get a few more programs to perform at a top 25 level consistently, they'll get a voice when the Power 5 starts consolidating their muscle in basketball.

        

      The A-10 will have a seat at the table. 
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      Scott W 86
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      « Reply #177 on: April 15, 2016, 01:04:19 pm »

      The A-10 will have a seat at the table. 

      High chairs don't count
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      « Reply #178 on: April 15, 2016, 01:08:49 pm »

      The A-10 will have a seat at the table. 

      Not as it is currently comprised.  Too many schools that don't win or no one cares about.
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      « Reply #179 on: April 15, 2016, 01:11:58 pm »

      High chairs don't count

      They just extended the television deal to 2032.  If you think CBS spent that money on a tournament not including teams from the A-10 and other lower conferences then you are not paying attention to how they market the first few rounds of the tournament.  No one who knows anything about college basketball says that the A-10 will be left out of any future break away.  Let me take it a step further: those who know about college basketball will also tell you that the P5 are not running to break off because they like having the smaller schools to play because of the number of games they play.  They do not mind having them in the NCAA tournament because it amounts to a bye for the number 1 seeds.  Old Coach takes a football mentality and brings it to basketball and it does not work.  Too many games and the NCAA tournament is marketed in a different way than the BCS bowls.  
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