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Is Villanova A Good Model for Fordham Athletics?


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Author Topic: Is Villanova A Good Model for Fordham Athletics?  (Read 5114 times)
Scott W 86
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« Reply #180 on: April 15, 2016, 01:25:13 pm »

They just extended the television deal to 2032.  If you think CBS spent that money on a tournament not including teams from the A-10 and other lower conferences then you are not paying attention to how they market the first few rounds of the tournament.  No one who knows anything about college basketball says that the A-10 will be left out of any future break away.  Let me take it a step further: those who know about college basketball will also tell you that the P5 are not running to break off because they like having the smaller schools to play because of the number of games they play.  They do not mind having them in the NCAA tournament because it amounts to a bye for the number 1 seeds.  Old Coach takes a football mentality and brings it to basketball and it does not work.  Too many games and the NCAA tournament is marketed in a different way than the BCS bowls.  

Think about the high chair analogy...

-while you certainly are in the family .... you don't get to run things at all
-you get food .... but not as much
-the love you get is real, but different
-You don't always stink...but you stink more often than the others
-occasionally they'll talk to each other like you are not even there
-they make plans without you all the time
-they learn to ignore you when you cry .... unless it's really important

That will be the A-10 at the table

The MAAC is more like being the family dog
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« Reply #181 on: April 15, 2016, 01:35:05 pm »

They just extended the television deal to 2032.  If you think CBS spent that money on a tournament not including teams from the A-10 and other lower conferences then you are not paying attention to how they market the first few rounds of the tournament.  No one who knows anything about college basketball says that the A-10 will be left out of any future break away.  Let me take it a step further: those who know about college basketball will also tell you that the P5 are not running to break off because they like having the smaller schools to play because of the number of games they play.  They do not mind having them in the NCAA tournament because it amounts to a bye for the number 1 seeds.  Old Coach takes a football mentality and brings it to basketball and it does not work.  Too many games and the NCAA tournament is marketed in a different way than the BCS bowls.  

"They" is the NCAA.  They take their orders from the Power 5.  The NCAA Tournament will look very different in 5-10 years.  You're in denial if you think the carrot of NCAA Tournament dollars is going to outweigh the clout of big-time college football.  

The Power 5 haven't broken off because its not in their interest today.  They've been getting everything they want and the NCAA made sure UNC and Syracuse weren't harmed by sanctions.  When the day comes when the NCAA tries to reclaim its turf or they give major push-back on a Power 5 initiative, there is no doubt they will walk away.
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« Reply #182 on: April 15, 2016, 01:38:06 pm »

Think about the high chair analogy...

-while you certainly are in the family .... you don't get to run things at all
-you get food .... but not as much
-the love you get is real, but different
-You don't always stink...but you stink more often than the others
-occasionally they'll talk to each other like you are not even there
-they make plans without you all the time
-they learn to ignore you when you cry .... unless it's really important

That will be the A-10 at the table

The MAAC is more like being the family dog

the P5 already have a lot of autonomy so your analogy already exists for all schools, its understood by anyone who follows this stuff.  The issue is will the P5 break away totally for hoops, that is the table and the answer is no at least not to the extent that the A-10 is left out.  
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« Reply #183 on: April 15, 2016, 01:41:04 pm »

"They" is the NCAA.  They take their orders from the Power 5.  The NCAA Tournament will look very different in 5-10 years.  You're in denial if you think the carrot of NCAA Tournament dollars is going to outweigh the clout of big-time college football.  

The Power 5 haven't broken off because its not in their interest today.  They've been getting everything they want and the NCAA made sure UNC and Syracuse weren't harmed by sanctions.  When the day comes when the NCAA tries to reclaim its turf or they give major push-back on a Power 5 initiative, there is no doubt they will walk away.

The P5 is the NCAA, that is a fact.  Saying the tournament will be different in a decade says nothing and mean less.  Everything changes over 10 years.  Your original statement left out the A-10 as being at the table, that is simply not going to happen.  Is the Patriot League in danger, sure.  Is it possible they get rid of the automatic qualifier and just take the top 68 teams, absolutely. 
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« Reply #184 on: April 15, 2016, 01:51:03 pm »

The P5 is the NCAA, that is a fact.  Saying the tournament will be different in a decade says nothing and mean less.  Everything changes over 10 years.  Your original statement left out the A-10 as being at the table, that is simply not going to happen.  Is the Patriot League in danger, sure.  Is it possible they get rid of the automatic qualifier and just take the top 68 teams, absolutely. 

The P5 is absolutely part of the NCAA and the part that counts the most.  The A-10 doesn't bring enough to the table to get a vote on big policy issues and never will.  They'll get to rubber stamp what the Power 5 wants.   They're a mid-major.  If they're smart, and they are, they will go with the flow, get teams in the tournament and split their part of the pie.  They just aren't going to be a player when it comes to making the rules.  If the A-10 had that kind of juice, so many teams wouldn't have bailed over the years.
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« Reply #185 on: April 15, 2016, 01:55:44 pm »

The A-10 doesn't bring enough to the table to get a vote.  If they're smart, and they are, they will go with the flow, get teams in the tournament and split their part of the pie.  They just aren't going to be a player when it comes to making the rules.  If the A-10 had that kind of juice, so many teams wouldn't have bailed over the years.

Teams left the A-10 for Big East money which to your point is the juice.  I agree with what you just said but that is not how I read your initial post maybe I misunderstood.  My point is this isnt football the P5 need the other conferences, even below the A-10, for scheduling and because of the way the tournament is marketed.  The first weekend is about small schools getting their shot, it is why people watch.  After that the bid dogs take over.  That basic premise is not going anywhere because that is what the TV money is based on, that is the juice. 
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« Reply #186 on: April 15, 2016, 02:42:45 pm »

My point is this isnt football the P5 need the other conferences, even below the A-10, for scheduling and because of the way the tournament is marketed.  The first weekend is about small schools getting their shot, it is why people watch.  After that the bid dogs take over.  That basic premise is not going anywhere because that is what the TV money is based on, that is the juice. 

This is absolutely correct.
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« Reply #187 on: April 17, 2016, 08:34:50 pm »

The P5 is absolutely part of the NCAA and the part that counts the most.  The A-10 doesn't bring enough to the table to get a vote on big policy issues and never will.  They'll get to rubber stamp what the Power 5 wants.   They're a mid-major.  If they're smart, and they are, they will go with the flow, get teams in the tournament and split their part of the pie.  They just aren't going to be a player when it comes to making the rules.  If the A-10 had that kind of juice, so many teams wouldn't have bailed over the years.

Yep, we need a TV contract too. NBC SN?
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« Reply #188 on: April 18, 2016, 10:59:13 am »

They just extended the television deal to 2032.  If you think CBS spent that money on a tournament not including teams from the A-10 and other lower conferences then you are not paying attention to how they market the first few rounds of the tournament.  No one who knows anything about college basketball says that the A-10 will be left out of any future break away.  Let me take it a step further: those who know about college basketball will also tell you that the P5 are not running to break off because they like having the smaller schools to play because of the number of games they play.  They do not mind having them in the NCAA tournament because it amounts to a bye for the number 1 seeds.  Old Coach takes a football mentality and brings it to basketball and it does not work.  Too many games and the NCAA tournament is marketed in a different way than the BCS bowls.  

The P5 doesn't need the smaller schools for number of games they play as they could easily fill out their entire OOC schedule with teams from the other P5 schools.  They do however need the smaller schools to pad their schedules and to provide the illusion of fairness.

I've always thought about the tie between basketball and football as being one of economy of scale and barrier to entry.  The kind of school that can pack a football stadium with 50-80K fans can easily pack an arena with 10K fans, so you really build up a very large base that can support a lot of ticket sales and season tickets, fundraising, merchandising sales.  You spread the administrative costs of what is essentially a professional sports franchise, and you provide a base big enough for national networks and advertisers to care about.  That's just a huge barrier to entry for a basketball-only school.
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« Reply #189 on: April 18, 2016, 12:26:41 pm »

The P5 doesn't need the smaller schools for number of games they play as they could easily fill out their entire OOC schedule with teams from the other P5 schools.  They do however need the smaller schools to pad their schedules and to provide the illusion of fairness.


You cant just look at the numbers, you have to consider how many home games P5 teams like to play OOC and that they want to play some easier games.  Also you need more options because of scheduling conflicts.  This is not the NBA where a computer spits out the schedule for all teams, each team makes its own schedule and they all have different priorities.  And no the P5 are not allowing a computer to generate their schedule.  Playing 30 games a year requires more than the P5 to make it work and it requires more than just adding the Big East, AAC and A-10. 

I have no idea what you are talking about in the last paragraph and not sure that I care so no need to expand on it. 
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« Reply #190 on: April 18, 2016, 01:33:31 pm »

Think about the high chair analogy...

-while you certainly are in the family .... you don't get to run things at all
-you get food .... but not as much
-the love you get is real, but different
-You don't always stink...but you stink more often than the others
-occasionally they'll talk to each other like you are not even there
-they make plans without you all the time
-they learn to ignore you when you cry .... unless it's really important

That will be the A-10 at the table

The MAAC is more like being the family dog

The Patriot League?
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« Reply #191 on: April 18, 2016, 01:41:57 pm »

Jay Wright is wrong a on that score.  The Power 5 is institutional, not just football and that will become clearer over time.  The Power 5 Conferences are already asserting themselves (see the stipends that are being added to traditional scholarships).  More to come, there.  Villanova and the BE and probably the AAC will get a seat at the table at some point because there are some decent football programs that there is money or the potential to make money.  The resurrected BE got a huge break with Villanova winning it all this year.  If they can get a few more programs to perform at a top 25 level consistently, they'll get a voice when the Power 5 starts consolidating their muscle in basketball.

  

I think Jay recognozed the fact that the power 5 and football money are the name of the game and that the new Big east has been working to find their place in the new wolrd order.  But i also think believes that power 5 isfottball relevant in that there is a pretty dam good product outside the power 5 in hoops and not just the obvious National Champs but also other teams in the Big East, teams in the A10 and teams in the AAC among others. 

Also, to your theory, I have seen the theory thrown around that the power 5 will do their own thing in hoops bc they did it in football but I just do not see that. In hoops they need the other teams much more and the backlash would be much bigger.  If they were destroying what so many casual sports fans describe as one of the most fun sporting events of the year (first weekend in particular), all for greed.   I could tell you they would be digging their own graves in my opinion.  I just dont see it.    Football was much easier to do becasue quite frankly there were rarely if ever any non power 5 teams vying for the championship.   
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« Reply #192 on: April 18, 2016, 10:29:07 pm »

I think Jay recognozed the fact that the power 5 and football money are the name of the game and that the new Big east has been working to find their place in the new wolrd order.  But i also think believes that power 5 isfottball relevant in that there is a pretty dam good product outside the power 5 in hoops and not just the obvious National Champs but also other teams in the Big East, teams in the A10 and teams in the AAC among others. 

Also, to your theory, I have seen the theory thrown around that the power 5 will do their own thing in hoops bc they did it in football but I just do not see that. In hoops they need the other teams much more and the backlash would be much bigger.  If they were destroying what so many casual sports fans describe as one of the most fun sporting events of the year (first weekend in particular), all for greed.   I could tell you they would be digging their own graves in my opinion.  I just dont see it.    Football was much easier to do becasue quite frankly there were rarely if ever any non power 5 teams vying for the championship.   

In a word. Correct.
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« Reply #193 on: April 19, 2016, 03:41:08 pm »

You cant just look at the numbers, you have to consider how many home games P5 teams like to play OOC and that they want to play some easier games.  Also you need more options because of scheduling conflicts.  This is not the NBA where a computer spits out the schedule for all teams, each team makes its own schedule and they all have different priorities.  And no the P5 are not allowing a computer to generate their schedule.  Playing 30 games a year requires more than the P5 to make it work and it requires more than just adding the Big East, AAC and A-10. 

I have no idea what you are talking about in the last paragraph and not sure that I care so no need to expand on it. 

Correct, I wasn't considering number of home games issue, but I did address the easier games preference when I said "pad their schedules".  I've already advocated for a computer to spit out say 3 OOC games to help make scheduling more fair and make it a little harder to game the system, but I know I'm tilting at windmills on that one.
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« Reply #194 on: April 19, 2016, 05:00:04 pm »

I think Jay recognozed the fact that the power 5 and football money are the name of the game and that the new Big east has been working to find their place in the new wolrd order.  But i also think believes that power 5 isfottball relevant in that there is a pretty dam good product outside the power 5 in hoops and not just the obvious National Champs but also other teams in the Big East, teams in the A10 and teams in the AAC among others. 

Also, to your theory, I have seen the theory thrown around that the power 5 will do their own thing in hoops bc they did it in football but I just do not see that. In hoops they need the other teams much more and the backlash would be much bigger.  If they were destroying what so many casual sports fans describe as one of the most fun sporting events of the year (first weekend in particular), all for greed.   I could tell you they would be digging their own graves in my opinion.  I just dont see it.    Football was much easier to do becasue quite frankly there were rarely if ever any non power 5 teams vying for the championship.   

Wright was looking at this from his seat in as a top level team in a major conference, albeit not a Power 5 Conference.  There are a couple of conferences that have the programs with the ability to be another Villanova, but not many.  I agree there is a good product in a couple of non-Power 5 conferences but that doesn't mean they bring much money to the table, which is what its all about. 

There are a handful of programs outside of the Power 5 conferences that regularly have any shot at the championship.  They can be accommodated.  The Power 5 conferences, which I believe will grow to the Power 6 at some point will still need games, as you suggest and with a large enough guarantee, they'll get what the need to fill a schedule from the mid-majors.   Just because they'll play mid-majors during the regular season doesn't necessarily mean they get a vote or a seat at the big boy table.
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