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Fordham @ St. John's 12/08/2016 Official Game Thread


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Author Topic: Fordham @ St. John's 12/08/2016 Official Game Thread  (Read 3359 times)
An Old Coach
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« Reply #150 on: December 09, 2016, 12:22:37 pm »

Hard to watch the game last night

We shot poorly and SJU shot great

We were beaten and deserved to lose

When we signed Hawkins and Severe left I thought it was a great trade off, especially since Severe clearly did not want to play last year. But now I see Hawkins has the same issue as Severe, can't finish at the rim

Taveres did miss a couple at the rim but I like his ability there more and I hope he gets more minutes

JN has to figure out a way to get some points inside, hitting from the outside would help but we are such a poor shooting team. JC  drove more last year and and Sengfelder  had a couple of inside moves as a frosh, what happened?.  I know neither are true post players but we do need to mix it up

Can't somebody teach Slanina a couple of shots in the paint?  If he were a high percentage guy from 3 then I could stomach seeing him exclusivly on the arc but we need somebody down low occasionally, at least to rebound.  It would help of Bunting had  more intensity and could rebound to score off put backs

JN must make some adjustments

We're not big, we can't shoot 3's and we aren't big enough to attack the rim.  What adjustments are you looking for?
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« Reply #151 on: December 09, 2016, 12:34:00 pm »

We're not big, we can't shoot 3's and we aren't big enough to attack the rim.  What adjustments are you looking for?

Huh? You don't think adjustments can be made or that we shouldn't try?  Tavares can attack the rim and he is not the only one

It is the coach's job to figure out how to create better match ups with what he has, will it magically transform us into a 20 win team? Of course not, but JN can figure out how to make us more competitive

You coached just like many of us on the board and we all know that you cannot keep beating your head against the wall expecting better results. I think JN has the talent to adapt and produce better results, at least to the point where we are more competitive each game

Don't throw in the towel just yet
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« Reply #152 on: December 09, 2016, 12:36:00 pm »

Huh? You don't think adjustments can be made or that we shouldn't try?  Tavares can attack the rim and he is not the only one

It is the coach's job to figure out how to create better match ups with what he has, will it magically transform us into a 20 win team? Of course not, but JN can figure out how to make us more competitive

You coached just like many of us on the board and we all know that you cannot keep beating your head against the wall expecting better results. I think JN has the talent to adapt and produce better results, at least to the point where we are more competitive each game

Don't throw in the towel just yet

Except we're 10 games in and doing just that, beating our heads against the wall expecting the same results by doing the same thing every game...
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« Reply #153 on: December 09, 2016, 12:46:23 pm »

Is this basically our roster next season?  Are we only losing Hawkins next season?  How many can we bring in next season?  Hate to bring it up, but it looks like we may need to make some room on the bench.
AA, Zarko, and CS will all have enough credits to graduate this year.
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« Reply #154 on: December 09, 2016, 12:49:45 pm »

Come out in the 2nd half and play some inspirational ball. However, it really does not look like any of these kids are having fun out there, want to be out there, or give a damn about winning.
Bingo!
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« Reply #155 on: December 09, 2016, 12:51:50 pm »

It's clear that the Fordham fan has been condemned to Basketball Hell. We all suffer in different ways. Stoicism, grief, shock, confusion and regrettably sometimes anger. I ,for one on occasion , have displayed such anger. I apologize to everyone I may have insulted ,embarrassed  or angered ,n the past. Especially 85 whose personal torment may be even greater than my own. I guess the hopelessness of our situation sometimes overwhelms me . I humbly apologize for my failings and ask forgiveness for my prior misconduct. I vow to try to assert more self-control and remember that other posters are suffering as well. Peace to all

Brilliant.

Question to Steve McGarrett:  You are well acquainted with some exotic clerics. Do you have an exorcist in your network?

I'm semi-serious.  I think a case could be made that our program might be possessed.  Are there any exorcists  at the Jesuit apartments now?
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« Reply #156 on: December 09, 2016, 01:20:01 pm »

Huh? You don't think adjustments can be made or that we shouldn't try?  Tavares can attack the rim and he is not the only one

It is the coach's job to figure out how to create better match ups with what he has, will it magically transform us into a 20 win team? Of course not, but JN can figure out how to make us more competitive

You coached just like many of us on the board and we all know that you cannot keep beating your head against the wall expecting better results. I think JN has the talent to adapt and produce better results, at least to the point where we are more competitive each game

Don't throw in the towel just yet

I didn't say that but throwing out, "make adjustments" is a little simplistic no?

He can make us more competitive by playing mad dog defense and major pressure when they're getting off the bus. We're focusing on offense.  It's not working.  Focus on defense and make them earn every basket.   We don't have a lot of talent but you can always play defense.  I have a tough time discerning the difference between what I'm seeing and what pecora was doing with his 4 guard "system".

I don't see the talent you do.  I'm certainly not seeing the effort.
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« Reply #157 on: December 09, 2016, 01:26:25 pm »

Jaden, I think this quote from Neubauer is notable:


"The percentage doesn't bother us, but the fact that they only turned it over 16 times, that's the problem.  We give up a high percentage every night and that's part of our defensive philosophy, however, we usually come away with a lot more steals."  

It's going to be difficult to expect your opponent to turn it over more than 16 times every game.  SJU turned it over 16 times and we were blown out, it's not like we were close.

Perhaps it's time to focus a little more on cutting down on the opponent's high percentage shots.  It's not like we do anything with the extra possessions anyway.  

I am with you on this. Enough with the turnovers we create. For every one we do there seems to be 3 or 4 open looks or layups we give up. The interior defense is a disaster. teams beat our defense at the top of the key drive in the lane and either dish for an open 3 or an easy lay up to a man cutting in. The last minute of the Sacred Heart game is a perfect example. We are up 4 and give up basically 2 layups and a foul. We do not have the athletes or depth to be playing this pressing defense all game. You expose the slow footed players we have which is basically 60% of the roster. Take this defense philosophy with the approach on offense in terms of throwing up 3s even though we have no good shooters and you wonder if this coach has any ability to alter his style to the skill sets of his roster.
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« Reply #158 on: December 09, 2016, 01:29:30 pm »

I am with you on this. Enough with the turnovers we create. For every one we do there seems to be 3 or 4 open looks or layups we give up. The interior defense is a disaster. teams beat our defense at the top of the key drive in the lane and either dish for an open 3 or an easy lay up to a man cutting in. The last minute of the Sacred Heart game is a perfect example. We are up 4 and give up basically 2 layups and a foul. We do not have the athletes or depth to be playing this pressing defense all game. You expose the slow footed players we have which is basically 60% of the roster. Take this defense philosophy with the approach on offense in terms of throwing up 3s even though we have no good shooters and you wonder if this coach has any ability to alter his style to the skill sets of his roster.

But that's the heart of the problem...
-no speed
-no size
-no shooters
-no bangers

Tell me what "system" ... scheme or style wins with that situation
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« Reply #159 on: December 09, 2016, 01:37:06 pm »

I am with you on this. Enough with the turnovers we create. For every one we do there seems to be 3 or 4 open looks or layups we give up. The interior defense is a disaster. teams beat our defense at the top of the key drive in the lane and either dish for an open 3 or an easy lay up to a man cutting in. The last minute of the Sacred Heart game is a perfect example. We are up 4 and give up basically 2 layups and a foul. We do not have the athletes or depth to be playing this pressing defense all game. You expose the slow footed players we have which is basically 60% of the roster. Take this defense philosophy with the approach on offense in terms of throwing up 3s even though we have no good shooters and you wonder if this coach has any ability to alter his style to the skill sets of his roster.

I guess you did not watch last year when he adopted his style to the skill sets of his roster.  I am with Scott, right now I am not sure what system will work, these guys are not good and I do not have any answer except the staff should be out recruiting every day. 
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« Reply #160 on: December 09, 2016, 01:41:11 pm »

I didn't say that but throwing out, "make adjustments" is a little simplistic no?

He can make us more competitive by playing mad dog defense and major pressure when they're getting off the bus. We're focusing on offense.  It's not working.  Focus on defense and make them earn every basket.   We don't have a lot of talent but you can always play defense.  I have a tough time discerning the difference between what I'm seeing and what pecora was doing with his 4 guard "system".

I don't see the talent you do.  I'm certainly not seeing the effort.

Just as simplistic as you saying we don't have the height, talent etc.

I am not pretending that I have the answers all mapped out just waiting for a call from JN and I agree that the offense is not working, I will add that all those uncontested 3's show the D was not working last night either.

I do agree with you that we need changes and pointed out some areas for improvement.  I don't think this is a super talented team but what talent there is can be used better, as I said that is JN's job. He is not the first coach to be up against it and have to regroup, let's hope that he can
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« Reply #161 on: December 09, 2016, 02:00:39 pm »

I guess you did not watch last year when he adopted his style to the skill sets of his roster.  I am with Scott, right now I am not sure what system will work, these guys are not good and I do not have any answer except the staff should be out recruiting every day. 

Harsh and on point. Rich, we're agreeing a lot this week, I'm kind of concerned...

As I've said numerous times, JC is the only "above average" A10 player on the roster. IMHO, JN is a below average coach. So you're working from WAY behind before you even begin tip-off.

I'll take a phrase from 'Moneyball' - it's an "island of misfit toys."

The talent is poor, and the pieces don't mesh either. A healthy JC and Tavares are the two best players. You better hope Hicks is a LEGIT mid-major scorer. Losing Hawkins would be addition by subtraction at this point. Bunting and Pekarek would be hard-pressed to play for a program better than Adelphi.
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« Reply #162 on: December 09, 2016, 02:16:54 pm »

Well I do not agree Neubauer is a below average coach and think he showed that last year.  Question is can he get the players here because these guys are not going to cut it.  Bunch of head hangers right now.  Maybe they turn it around this year but I am not counting on it, the toughness we showed last year is no where to be found.   
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« Reply #163 on: December 09, 2016, 02:50:50 pm »

But that's the heart of the problem...
-no speed
-no size
-no shooters
-no bangers

Tell me what "system" ... scheme or style wins with that situation

no speed:  except for Anderson, you're right, but if it was just speed, we could compensate.
no size: actually, we do have size in Slanina, Bunting, Sengfelder, and Pekarek.  It's just that they can't use it effectively.
no shooters: Sengfelder and Tavares can shoot from the outside, maybe Hicks when he is available.
no bangers:  bingo!!!

Can we make adjustments with this group?  I don't know.  That's why you need coaching, so I expect Neubauer to try something different because the inside is too weak, we can't shoot threes and we don't play tough around the basket.
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« Reply #164 on: December 09, 2016, 02:52:27 pm »

Although JN can in no way be considered a bad coach, there are a few things he does that seem off to me. First, his reluctance to call time outs to stop runs by the other team drives me crazy. It has cost us games IMO several times. Look at the Richmond game last year as a good example, only one of several.  A quick time-out at the beginning of the 2nd half last night should have been called to at least try to keep the game within reach. This is combined with his main focus on creating turnovers at the expense of repeatedly leaving good shooters open and allowing easy cuts to the basket. I think he is acting a little stubborn in the way he coaches, refusing to adjust.
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« Reply #165 on: December 09, 2016, 04:05:43 pm »

To boot, we do not seem to even have a big that we can revert to right now. They would have to scrap the plan and start posting up Slanina and using Ohams and Taveres on the baseline. Not sure the coaches are ready to do that or that those players are up to the challenge. So we live and die by the 3 ?  Yikes.

The one odd thing is that you afford to miss some 3 point shots if you are a good rebounding team. The long shot often creates a long rebound so even if you are boxed out, it goes over the top . We saw several of those missed opportunities last night due to our lack of srength and lack of rebounding ability.

sort of scanned through this thread and responding to this one but forgive me if similar points were made.  The thing that drove me crazy about our 3's wasn't as much that we were getting outmuscled for the rebound as much as all of our guys would take off to play defense, leaving no one (or, at most, one) person to fight with their 4 or 5 for the rebound.  Just maddening.  Hoist it up and run back. 

This was my first game where I saw the game live.  Some random thoughts:

*Chartouny clearly off.  I saw some posts referencing him being injured.  Having him out there hurt us more than it helped last night as he may be tough but he was horrendous.
*Tavares was one of the few guys who could hang with St. Johns athletically imo.
*I thought Hawkins was going to be a steadying influence, making all those around him better and was wrong.  We seem to have four guys out there and then he's on his own playing his own game. 
*Slanina is awful.  His 3pt shot is good for a big man but there was zero strength or toughness shown last night.  I hate it when a guy that big prefers to play outside the paint, though, so there's a built in bias against him when I see him always floating to the top of the key.
*We are soooo slow
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« Reply #166 on: December 09, 2016, 04:17:25 pm »

sort of scanned through this thread and responding to this one but forgive me if similar points were made.  The thing that drove me crazy about our 3's wasn't as much that we were getting outmuscled for the rebound as much as all of our guys would take off to play defense, leaving no one (or, at most, one) person to fight with their 4 or 5 for the rebound.  Just maddening.  Hoist it up and run back. 

This was my first game where I saw the game live.  Some random thoughts:

*Chartouny clearly off.  I saw some posts referencing him being injured.  Having him out there hurt us more than it helped last night as he may be tough but he was horrendous.
*Tavares was one of the few guys who could hang with St. Johns athletically imo.
*I thought Hawkins was going to be a steadying influence, making all those around him better and was wrong.  We seem to have four guys out there and then he's on his own playing his own game. 
*Slanina is awful.  His 3pt shot is good for a big man but there was zero strength or toughness shown last night.  I hate it when a guy that big prefers to play outside the paint, though, so there's a built in bias against him when I see him always floating to the top of the key.
*We are soooo slow

Your last point is a huge one. Can't expect to maintain our type of defense throughout the whole game with slow, and some out of shape players. Not going to work. Why not high pressure D from the half court? Our guys are gassed constantly.
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« Reply #167 on: December 09, 2016, 05:32:30 pm »

Always love taking in a game at Lou's Place-perfect size, nice atmosphere.  But last night...here I'm gonna sound not like an Old Coach but more like an Old Fan.  I left hearing impaired and with a case of tinnitus!  I think my friend was saying things to me...I think.  Blasting, shrill, cacophonous crap being blared into the arena abating only when the ball was in play.  Sadly, the ball being in play provided no respite for any Ram fan on this night.   I'm like Brian Wilson I guess-just not made for these times!

As for the "action":  Better Players-more athletic, faster, quicker, shooters/scorers on and on...
                           Better Basketball.
                           St. John's.

                             
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« Reply #168 on: December 09, 2016, 06:54:37 pm »

Well I do not agree Neubauer is a below average coach and think he showed that last year.  Question is can he get the players here because these guys are not going to cut it.  Bunch of head hangers right now.  Maybe they turn it around this year but I am not counting on it, the toughness we showed last year is no where to be found.   

Maybe the soul and toughness of this team graduated and has not been replaced.
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« Reply #169 on: December 09, 2016, 07:48:34 pm »

Maybe the soul and toughness of this team graduated and has not been replaced.

Yeah I think we all have been saying that which is why I said I am not counting on it. 
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« Reply #170 on: December 09, 2016, 08:26:51 pm »

We've got nothing bros. Well not nothing, but nothing that will get us significant win numbers this season.

It's up to JN to coach his team out of this funk and I just don't see it happening. Rhoomes played with fire last season and fired us up. 

Who plays with fire in this line up? That could change as the season wears on but right now, who?
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« Reply #171 on: February 16, 2017, 12:08:02 am »

The level of absurdity of your 11-10 suggestion is an 11 out of 10.

Victories over CCST and 2-3 A10 games. This is a 9-19 trash heap season (eternal reminder: 6 misleading "victories" against the worst OOC schedule in school history)

Can someone please apologize to me?  Especially you PeterMartin08.....Yes, yes I know we will have to go 5-0 in our last 5 games to accurately accomplish the 11-10 finish that I suggested, but right now we are 6-10 with 5 games to go.  When I made this prediction I was laughed out of the building.....
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« Reply #172 on: February 16, 2017, 08:03:51 am »

Can someone please apologize to me?  Especially you PeterMartin08.....Yes, yes I know we will have to go 5-0 in our last 5 games to accurately accomplish the 11-10 finish that I suggested, but right now we are 6-10 with 5 games to go.  When I made this prediction I was laughed out of the building.....

You were awful quiet after we lost to Manhattan lost at home to Duquesne got hammered by Saint Joes at home.  At the time your prediction was ridiculous it was even more ridiculous after the losses I stated above which is why you were not on the board sticking with it.  You may also want to hold off on your victory parade.  If one thing is certain this team is unpredictable we could lay an egg Saturday, I was at the Lasalle game it was not pretty.

Now let's enjoy the ride you never know how long it will last. 
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« Reply #173 on: February 17, 2017, 06:50:38 am »

Can someone please apologize to me?  Especially you PeterMartin08.....Yes, yes I know we will have to go 5-0 in our last 5 games to accurately accomplish the 11-10 finish that I suggested, but right now we are 6-10 with 5 games to go.  When I made this prediction I was laughed out of the building.....

I'm sorry you cannot tolerate ridicule. Evil
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« Reply #174 on: February 17, 2017, 07:59:38 am »

The out of conference schedule was mostly teams better than Fordham in the kenpom rankings as of now.  It seemed to prep us pretty well despite the disaster it seemed. A lot of new guys to blend in plus injuries, coaches learning what would work.  Not to telitigate. 👹

Kenpom rank:

East Tennessee 65
Arlington 69
St. John's 87
Harvard 112
Rutgers 135
Saint Peter 120
Lipscomb 167
Fairfield 198


Fordham 200
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« Reply #175 on: February 17, 2017, 08:57:46 am »

I get the others, but how is Lipscomb, St. Peters and Fairfield higher than us in these rankings?
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« Reply #176 on: February 17, 2017, 09:51:47 am »

The out of conference schedule was mostly teams better than Fordham in the kenpom rankings as of now.  It seemed to prep us pretty well despite the disaster it seemed. A lot of new guys to blend in plus injuries, coaches learning what would work.  Not to telitigate. 👹

Kenpom rank:

East Tennessee 65
Arlington 69
St. John's 87
Harvard 112
Rutgers 135
Saint Peter 120
Lipscomb 167
Fairfield 198


Fordham 200

Yes the so called trash OOC schedule was not so trashy. We had two terrible losses Manhattan and SHU. Duquesne was pretty bad as well. The Lipscomb and St Peters blowouts look better now as does the close loss to Arlington.
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« Reply #177 on: February 17, 2017, 09:54:34 am »

I get the others, but how is Lipscomb, St. Peters and Fairfield higher than us in these rankings?

These rankings are not perfect and look at the entire body of work. We have played really terrible at times and that is hurting especially with our offensive efficiency ranking. We should continue to improve and will probably move closer to 175 by the end of the year
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« Reply #178 on: February 17, 2017, 09:56:01 am »

The out of conference schedule was mostly teams better than Fordham in the kenpom rankings as of now.  It seemed to prep us pretty well despite the disaster it seemed. A lot of new guys to blend in plus injuries, coaches learning what would work.  Not to telitigate.

Kenpom rank:

East Tennessee 65
Arlington 69
St. John's 87
Harvard 112
Rutgers 135
Saint Peter 120
Lipscomb 167
Fairfield 198


Fordham 200

We did not play Fairfield. Are you thinking Fairleigh Dickinson?
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« Reply #179 on: February 17, 2017, 10:02:52 am »

We did not play Fairfield. Are you thinking Fairleigh Dickinson?

You beat me to it FDU is ranked 264.  As for our ranking when you lose to teams ranked 291 304 206 you are not going to have a respectable ranking.  As for our OOC schedule it was ranked 255 in the nation.  Better than last year but not murders row. 
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