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A10 Talent Level: 1996-Present


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NYRam07
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« Reply #30 on: December 29, 2016, 09:50:25 am »

It was a personality thing. Bethel was a sensitive guy, DW just obliterated him. He could have helped all four years. Instead he was used as a spare part.

Come to think of it, I'll add Michael Binns to the list. Binns was decent, but not nearly as talented as Bethel.

Like many of these guys, Binns would be a welcome addition to this team. We need some nastiness and aggressiveness under the boards. Back then, I always thought Binns could be a bigger force for us... today, I'd happily take what he provided to us when he was on the team. its miles more than what anyone else is doing for us.
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« Reply #31 on: December 29, 2016, 09:55:09 am »

Alberto Estwick. Not an A10 player. He was the 5th piece to DW's '08 class of Fontan, Blue, Gordon, Thomas, Estwick. Very poor.

'09 class was: Gaston, Lance Brown, Moquette, Freeman, Thompson, Melvin. Take away Gaston and Fontan, you have 2 A10 players out of 11 scholarships. That's how you murder a program.

'10 had Frazier and Bristol (JC), Dominique, Samuell

'11 ugly with Pecora: Fatty McMillan, Short, Bryan Smith, Canty, Zivkovic, Younger Fay. That's a Fail.

'12 had two hits with Mandell Thomas and Rhoomes. Travion Leonard was OK before leaving. Jermaine Myers was horrible. Will add both to the list.

'13 ugly with Pecora again: Severe, Older Fay, Suarez, Antwoine Anderson, Whitehead. Another fail.

'14 has Paschall and Sengfelder. Zarkovic, not much there. and Zaire Thompson. Can't forget Zaire. Brutal.

'15 not looking good: Chartouny with three misses: Nych Smith, Hardnett, Bunting

16 TBD: N'Diaye never happened. Chuba - who knows. Tavares is a contributor. Hicks - we will see.
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Any other team wins the World Series, good for them. They're drinking champagne, they get a ring. But if we win, on our budget, with this team... we'll have changed the game. And that's what I want. I want it to mean something. - Moneyball
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« Reply #32 on: December 29, 2016, 10:11:32 am »

Geno Auriemma says he looks for 2 impact players in every recruiting class. Easy for him to say, but if you can do that consistently you're going to have good teams.
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« Reply #33 on: December 29, 2016, 10:32:27 am »

Like many of these guys, Binns would be a welcome addition to this team. We need some nastiness and aggressiveness under the boards. Back then, I always thought Binns could be a bigger force for us... today, I'd happily take what he provided to us when he was on the team. its miles more than what anyone else is doing for us.
with his body, he should have played down low more often.  It used to drive me crazy to see him hanging out near the 3-pt line.  He could have been a better rebounder than he was. I didn't know him but he seemed too nice and was not used properly.
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« Reply #34 on: December 29, 2016, 10:36:01 am »

Geno Auriemma says he looks for 2 impact players in every recruiting class. Easy for him to say, but if you can do that consistently you're going to have good teams.

As you said, easy for him to say...I think 1 impact and 1 contributor at the A10 level is a nice start for us.

Between 2008 and 2015, I'm counting: 10 A10 players. 20 misses.

Too many of those 20 are completely off the grid misses.

1 out of 3 won't cut it, anywhere.
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Any other team wins the World Series, good for them. They're drinking champagne, they get a ring. But if we win, on our budget, with this team... we'll have changed the game. And that's what I want. I want it to mean something. - Moneyball
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« Reply #35 on: December 29, 2016, 10:47:26 am »

As you said, easy for him to say...I think 1 impact and 1 contributor at the A10 level is a nice start for us.

Between 2008 and 2015, I'm counting: 10 A10 players. 20 misses.

Too many of those 20 are completely off the grid misses.

1 out of 3 won't cut it, anywhere.

Exactly.

We seem to have 1 impact player and 1 contributor every 3 to 4 years. And often they do not stay for the 4 years.

1 impact and 1 contributor in *every* *single* class and we would be getting somewhere.
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Nothing replaces success in the revenue sports.  Nothing.  That's not to take away from the success in the Olympic sports - they do matter.  It isn't a replacement for success in the flagship sports. - Debbie Yow, AD - NC State
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« Reply #36 on: December 29, 2016, 11:12:27 am »

And its the same problem year after year. The staff goes to find pie in the sky recruits, strikes out with all of them, then at the 11th hour,  wastes schollies on non deserving players ( Brennan Melvin, et al. ) or worse, gives them to walk-ons. Our best roster was when DW had a good assistant and he locked guys up early. Dunston who wasnt such a highly recruited player, Stout, KA, SeaBass and then Binns. A good solid basketball team. Go get good solid basketball players and stop trying to out recruit the big boys.

Aim lower, get all-around basketball players and if need be, hold those scholarships for mid year transfers.  That is when you get the opportunity for high end talent ( Mo Curtis) when a kid wants to transfer or come back home from a big school. You cant waste those schollies. Our only chance to get big time talent is via transfer.
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« Reply #37 on: December 29, 2016, 11:41:04 am »

A good solid basketball team. Go get good solid basketball players and stop trying to out recruit the big boys.

Agree with this. Don't agree with your team example.

Sebastian Greene was a Top 100 signing, and not a good basketball player. Kevin Anderson was the worst offensive player I've ever seen at the A10 level. Offensive sets were 4 on 5. The opposition did not defend him beyond 10 feet.

But the premise, yes absolutely - Solid basketball players over highly rated athletes.

PS - Mo Curtis was 20 years ago, and although he came from WVU, I don't believe he came in as any savior. He just happened to be that good. If I recall, he got injured and should have had another year of eligibility. Imagine what that team could have been.
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Any other team wins the World Series, good for them. They're drinking champagne, they get a ring. But if we win, on our budget, with this team... we'll have changed the game. And that's what I want. I want it to mean something. - Moneyball
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« Reply #38 on: December 29, 2016, 12:02:46 pm »

PS - Mo Curtis was 20 years ago, and although he came from WVU, I don't believe he came in as any savior. He just happened to be that good. If I recall, he got injured and should have had another year of eligibility. Imagine what that team could have been.

Was thinking the same thing. That was ages ago. Anybody else brings up such an example and the first person to point out that things are different now is 85. For every Mo Curtis there is a Jacob Green or Mark Jarrell-Wright (I forget if one or both were mid-season transfers or not).
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« Reply #39 on: December 29, 2016, 12:27:50 pm »

Agree with this. Don't agree with your team example.

Sebastian Greene was a Top 100 signing, and not a good basketball player. Kevin Anderson was the worst offensive player I've ever seen at the A10 level. Offensive sets were 4 on 5. The opposition did not defend him beyond 10 feet.

But the premise, yes absolutely - Solid basketball players over highly rated athletes.

PS - Mo Curtis was 20 years ago, and although he came from WVU, I don't believe he came in as any savior. He just happened to be that good. If I recall, he got injured and should have had another year of eligibility. Imagine what that team could have been.

And that is precisely the point with Mo Curtis. 20 years ago is a long time to get a good transfer.  I still dont think Hawkins is all that bad.

In my view, again, the only way to get high end talent seems to be via transfer.  Some work out, some dont but I think its a better strategy than jsut filling ships att the 11th hour. We could argue this all day but the bottom line is the point of this thread. 20 years and very little talent to match our conference.

So what is the answer?  Is there one?  Do we keep changing coaches? Do we try to hire an assistant versus a head coach? Do we change conferences? 
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« Reply #40 on: December 29, 2016, 12:31:04 pm »

MJW was a horrific shooter, but could get to the basket (with a bad knee) and played good defense. He had three full seasons at Fordham.

I'm not sure how Jacob Green ever had a Big East ship. Following a lost freshman season at WVU, he had three full seasons at Fordham, and was a non-factor as a JR/SR.

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Any other team wins the World Series, good for them. They're drinking champagne, they get a ring. But if we win, on our budget, with this team... we'll have changed the game. And that's what I want. I want it to mean something. - Moneyball
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« Reply #41 on: December 29, 2016, 12:33:54 pm »

Marlon Smith, Devon Everston, Derek Breland, MJW, Corey Mcrae......dubious group. I dont think Pecora had anyone transfer in during his tenure.  The transfer issue has exploded. To me, it seems the only way we might be able to get up to par talent wise in short order but of course, not without peril. Again, when you look at your list.  How do you fix the inability to attract talent here?
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« Reply #42 on: December 29, 2016, 12:34:30 pm »

Extending back to 99/00/01 for a moment. Look at the talent: Robin, Harris, Duke McKamey, Jeff McMillan, Alejandro Olivares, Michael Haynes, Scott Harmatuk, TJ Johnson, Arseni Kuchinsky...

Compare that talent pool to what we've seen over the past eight seasons.
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Any other team wins the World Series, good for them. They're drinking champagne, they get a ring. But if we win, on our budget, with this team... we'll have changed the game. And that's what I want. I want it to mean something. - Moneyball
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« Reply #43 on: December 29, 2016, 12:38:27 pm »

Was thinking the same thing. That was ages ago. Anybody else brings up such an example and the first person to point out that things are different now is 85. For every Mo Curtis there is a Jacob Green or Mark Jarrell-Wright (I forget if one or both were mid-season transfers or not).

And for every Jacob Green or MJW,  there is a Ryan Hage or Khalid Robinson.   I will take my chances with the former as transfers as opposed to walk-ons or last minute gets like Brennan Melvin. Im sure the assistants are under pressure to get the schollies filled. Vicious cycle.

Im just suggestng alternatives. 20 years of failure, what else can you do?  The only other thing I can think of is to move to a lower conference.
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« Reply #44 on: December 29, 2016, 12:42:35 pm »

And that is precisely the point with Mo Curtis. 20 years ago is a long time to get a good transfer.  I still dont think Hawkins is all that bad.

In my view, again, the only way to get high end talent seems to be via transfer.  Some work out, some dont but I think its a better strategy than jsut filling ships att the 11th hour. We could argue this all day but the bottom line is the point of this thread. 20 years and very little talent to match our conference.

So what is the answer?  Is there one?  Do we keep changing coaches? Do we try to hire an assistant versus a head coach? Do we change conferences? 


You have a big board with current team needs and potentially disgruntled major program players who are underutilized, and get in super early when they announce.  With the losing culture here, all you have available to sell is playing time and a style of play they would thrive in.  You need a few seasons of relevance to have a prayer in most cases.  I feel Dayton does it this way with some of the guys they land (Vee Sanford Georgetown, Jordan Sibert Ohio State), but they have winning culture and 13K arena in their pocket.

I think Neubauer overestimated this team's ability, believing they were much more potent offensively and that Anderson and Sengfelder would be more consistently productive.  The more I see Hawkins the more I think he was not brought in to be a leading scorer but someone who Neubauer thought could push a borderline NIT team over the border with intangible skills.  The scorer mentality made him a black hole and hopefully we get a more all around game from him now.
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« Reply #45 on: December 29, 2016, 12:44:37 pm »

Extending back to 99/00/01 for a moment. Look at the talent: Robin, Harris, Duke McKamey, Jeff McMillan, Alejandro Olivares, Michael Haynes, Scott Harmatuk, TJ Johnson, Arseni Kuchinsky...

Compare that talent pool to what we've seen over the past eight seasons.

All those players did not play at the same time, but the point still stands. Those were the most talented teams we had since joining the A10. I think the most talent we had was in Hill's first year or at least that was the better team. Most talent was likely in his 2nd year when we graduated few from the previous year and added some good basketball players, but that roster was managed very poorly.
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« Reply #46 on: December 29, 2016, 12:46:52 pm »

And for every Jacob Green or MJW,  there is a Ryan Hage or Khalid Robinson. 

Green was miserable.
MJW was a Top 75 guy out of HS.
Hage and Robinson (and Vita and Munson) were given scholarships as seniors as a reward.
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Any other team wins the World Series, good for them. They're drinking champagne, they get a ring. But if we win, on our budget, with this team... we'll have changed the game. And that's what I want. I want it to mean something. - Moneyball
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« Reply #47 on: December 29, 2016, 12:48:19 pm »

All those players did not play at the same time, but the point still stands. Those were the most talented teams we had since joining the A10. I think the most talent we had was in Hill's first year or at least that was the better team. Most talent was likely in his 2nd year when we graduated few from the previous year and added some good basketball players, but that roster was managed very poorly.

Over two seasons, all of those players were part of the program. 99-00 and 00-01 rosters. A lot of talent.
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Any other team wins the World Series, good for them. They're drinking champagne, they get a ring. But if we win, on our budget, with this team... we'll have changed the game. And that's what I want. I want it to mean something. - Moneyball
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« Reply #48 on: December 29, 2016, 12:48:44 pm »

Wow, we've really had some duds. (Not to be confused with Dud; that guy could play).  I mean, a lot of the guys on the list weren't just bad players, they were non-players. But if you look, you'll see a lot of desperation recruiting -- we had 'ships to fill, and the guys we'd been following all year turned us down. Worst grab, I think, is when DW decided to bypass his assistants and bring in Lamar Thomas, Khiry Gordon and Brennen Melvin. Ouchie! Gordon, as was noted, would up at Mercy, Melvin had a cup of coffee in JUCO and never played again, Thomas wound up at Houston Baptist.

Rayner Moquette (recruited at midyear in another desperation move) actually played at Binghamton after leaving Fordham. Brian Freeman was there for a minute, I think, then wound up at some JUCO near Philly.

Brian Freeman was here for 2 years, never entered a game, and got on the scoresheet with a technical foul for dunking in practice. That's a pretty hard career record to match.  Last heard from when I read an article about some US coach who takes kids on paid visits to Europe, looking to hook on with European teams. One of the European coaches commented on the shortcomings of the visiting prospects, then singled out Freeman saying "he has no talent or game whatsoever. None."  And when we signed Freeman, we stopped going after a 6'8" forward from Staten Island who would attend Siena and lead the nation in rebounding for a couple of years.

I think Glenn Batemon, our 6'11, 360 pound center from Detroit, might go on this list. I remember MSG going deathly quiet after he fell on a St. John's guard. He transferred to U. of Miami, but I don't know that he ever suited up there.

One guy we can be proud of is J-Rock, who for many years was one of the mainstays of Canada's national team, and still plays professionally in Europe, I believe. He is well-respected across Canada.
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« Reply #49 on: December 29, 2016, 12:49:04 pm »

Extending back to 99/00/01 for a moment. Look at the talent: Robin, Harris, Duke McKamey, Jeff McMillan, Alejandro Olivares, Michael Haynes, Scott Harmatuk, TJ Johnson, Arseni Kuchinsky...

Compare that talent pool to what we've seen over the past eight seasons.
Nick's 2nd to last recruiting class was one of the best/deepest we've had since joining the league.  His last class was a bust and neither recruit played here.  

We've had mixed results with foreign players but Olivares and Sengfelder (among others) show that Fordham can recruit well internationally.  It works for GW.  We should look at that group of players more closely. Being in NYC is a natural draw for these guys just like DC is a natural draw for foreign players.
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« Reply #50 on: December 29, 2016, 12:52:40 pm »

Thanks, John. will update a few more with your notes.
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Any other team wins the World Series, good for them. They're drinking champagne, they get a ring. But if we win, on our budget, with this team... we'll have changed the game. And that's what I want. I want it to mean something. - Moneyball
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« Reply #51 on: December 29, 2016, 01:13:26 pm »

This is a very sobering thread.  I knew our record was bad, but I didn't really appreciate precisely how bad until it's laid out like this.  Seems like this is the area that Roach should be addressing directly since it's something they can actually do something about (unlike facilities).
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« Reply #52 on: December 29, 2016, 01:26:32 pm »

All-Ram Team who played more minutes than talent warranted, since 02-

C- Devine
PF- ?? - maybe Leonard
SF- Dominic Osei
SG- Estwick
PG- Derrick Breland
6th man- Zarkovic
More guards to accommodate the 4 guard offense era- Myers, Whitehead

Bethel is captain of the "played fewer minutes" team.
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« Reply #53 on: December 29, 2016, 01:28:35 pm »

So then what exactly is the answer here? 20 years of inability to recruit more than maybe 20% of the required talent to compete at this level.

Its a good summary by Peter but what is the resolve? 
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« Reply #54 on: December 29, 2016, 01:31:08 pm »

This is a very sobering thread.  I knew our record was bad, but I didn't really appreciate precisely how bad until it's laid out like this. 

The personnel is deplorably poor.

The list of names from Jermaine Myers onward gives 18-20 "players" that had no business playing D1, let alone A10.

18-20 names over six years is unlike anything we saw in the Hill years. The end of DW's tenure created a gaping hole that Pecora inherited. Pecora had a couple decent classes, and a couple complete fail jobs. The depth of talent is so shockingly horrendous. Most of these teams have 3-4 players. Every A10 program has 8-9 guys, with another couple RS and ready to contribute.
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Any other team wins the World Series, good for them. They're drinking champagne, they get a ring. But if we win, on our budget, with this team... we'll have changed the game. And that's what I want. I want it to mean something. - Moneyball
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« Reply #55 on: December 29, 2016, 01:32:52 pm »

All-Ram Team who played more minutes than talent warranted, since 02-

C- Devine
PF- ?? - maybe Leonard
SF- Dominic Osei
SG- Estwick
PG- Derrick Breland
6th man- Zarkovic
More guards to accommodate the 4 guard offense era- Myers, Whitehead

Bethel is captain of the "played fewer minutes" team.

Leonard actually had good feet and hands, probably should have been an offensive tackle.

Add him to the Bunting football / Pekarek hockey trade.
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Any other team wins the World Series, good for them. They're drinking champagne, they get a ring. But if we win, on our budget, with this team... we'll have changed the game. And that's what I want. I want it to mean something. - Moneyball
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« Reply #56 on: December 29, 2016, 01:41:13 pm »

So then what exactly is the answer here? 20 years of inability to recruit more than maybe 20% of the required talent to compete at this level.

Its a good summary by Peter but what is the resolve? 

I think we're hitting it:
1. more basketball players, fewer athletes.
2. a calculated JUCO add here and there is welcomed.
3. international adds have been mixed.
4. toss away ships that turn into nothing annihilate the program. HC must be accountable for swinging and missing.
5. internal player development has been in decline.
6. internal roster depth has been in decline.
7. top end talent has been in decline.
8. above all, the ratio that Ace and I mentioned is necessary: When you bring in 3 players, 1 impact and 1 solid per class. You can't miss on multiple players within a single class. From 08 through 15, we're missing on more than 33% ...more than 33% are non D1 players.
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Any other team wins the World Series, good for them. They're drinking champagne, they get a ring. But if we win, on our budget, with this team... we'll have changed the game. And that's what I want. I want it to mean something. - Moneyball
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« Reply #57 on: December 29, 2016, 01:43:59 pm »

The guys on some of these Ivy League teams are not the best athletes but they are basketball players. These teams would beat us.
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« Reply #58 on: December 29, 2016, 01:45:39 pm »

The guys on some of these Ivy League teams are not the best athletes but they are basketball players. These teams would beat us.

Precisely. Patriot League too. Well-coached, fundamentally sound...Basketball players.
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Any other team wins the World Series, good for them. They're drinking champagne, they get a ring. But if we win, on our budget, with this team... we'll have changed the game. And that's what I want. I want it to mean something. - Moneyball
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« Reply #59 on: December 29, 2016, 02:56:06 pm »

interesting stuff    rainy day, got me looking at some of my old media guides   Steve Canal and Cori Spencer ( think he left to join Nick at Stony Brook ) have not been mentioned      despite his offense thought K. Anderson was A10 caliber on D and ran the offense well   Corey McCrae was a spark off the bench ( believe he had 5 3's in that great home win vs X ( KA breakaway dunk )

two tid bits , after 2 seasons, Dunston was 46.2% on 3 point shots      Nov. 05, we played Old Dom  Georgia and Norfolk in Paradise Jam  in that tourney was Eastern Ky with 1st year coach JN

thought Hill's 2nd year  was the most talented, exciting at times team but also the most frustrating and least disciplined
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