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Chaka001
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« Reply #30 on: January 25, 2017, 10:21:29 am »

I think we are fine where we are in the PL.  I would imagine the league will get better as the scholarships become a bigger facto moving forward.  I would like for G-Town to step up.  Lafayette will get better, they have done for themselves if you factor in the last 20 years.

I believe if we build new facilities we have the ability to be a perennial power in the PL and could also increase our chances of advancing further in playoffs when we get that opportunity.  I like the CAA but don't believe it is our best option.

I also believe we need to schedule better.  What makes sense for the advancement of the team is putting them in the best position to make playoffs.  Therefore, schedule to take advantage of playing games in hotbeds for recruiting areas, generating as many funds (home (attendance/tickets) and away (FBS guarantee) as we can.

I would also hope the university interviews the players as to help recruiting efforts in the future, basically exit interviews to the seniors
- what they liked best/least about their experience at Fordham.
- was playing a game at Yankee Stadium impactful and would that draw the interest of a recruit if we decided to play one game there each year or every other year.
- what teams they enjoyed playing most.
- if they were coach/AD for the day what would concepts would entice recruits to make Fordham the most attractive option.
- what factor should Fordham exploit versus limit?
- ask them what their friends like/dislike about the schools they play for.

Ultimately the players themselves will give you the answers and the outgoing players will be the most honest as they have nothing to worry about.
I just hope this is a standard operating procedure by Roach for all teams, but especially those like Football and basketball that have the most expense/financial impact/fan interest/exposure.
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« Reply #31 on: January 25, 2017, 10:28:41 am »

You are correct my mistake.  http://www.ncaa.com/news/ncaa/article/2016-12-08/north-alabama-sports-move-division-i-fall-2018

Sunbelt may as well be FCS. there are 5 FBS conferences.  Everything else is a notch below. 

They might be a notch below, but the Sunbelt is not a mult-bid league, as you put it. They are a zero bid league b/c FBS conferences do not get bids to the FCS playoffs. FBS does not mean highest level of the highest level, it means that they are schools that are eligible for bowls.

That said, North Alabama is going to play their football in the Big South which is FCS and is at times, but not always, multi-bid.

Bottom line though, and I think this is your ultimate point, schools are not moving to DI b/c they want to upgrade their football to FCS. It is an sports decision overall with the cost of football being one of the reasons they might hold back.
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« Reply #32 on: January 25, 2017, 10:37:04 am »

This is why I stick to basketball. Thank you. DIII DII FCS FBS POWER 5 Whatever.  Cheesy
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« Reply #33 on: January 25, 2017, 01:23:54 pm »

Revenue? What revenue? I think any increases in revenue would be marginal at best. If done right, the cost of upgrading would never be recouped.

If that is the case then it is a tough sell. Unless of course donors cover the costs.

At the very least we can be pushing the PL to have their member schools commit, make incremental facility improvements and try to remove other barriers to improve like redshirting, reduced scholies, APR.
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« Reply #34 on: January 25, 2017, 02:00:05 pm »

If Fordham wanted to move to the CAA, definitely need facility improvements  (without them we would have trouble recruiting against schools in the conference and consistently hover near the bottom of the standings).  I don't think there would be much revenue gained/recouped by playing a CAA schedule (rather than PL teams).  One area however to possibly recoup costs would be  play  1-2 FBS foes each year.   I'm no expert but don't FBS teams  pay 200-500k  for home games?    I don't think FBS teams  would be like  oh Fordham is in CAA we have to schedule them now   lol ..  but extra 3 scholarships, no AI  and  the ability to redshirt  could  better prepare us to matchup physically etc.    yes we would take an L -- but at least have some money to show for it.   

I know Fordham pushed the envelope once with PL    I wonder if we would have the nuts do it again ..      Grin
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« Reply #35 on: January 25, 2017, 09:43:23 pm »

The real question that needs to be answered is what is the cost to upgrade to be able to compete in the CAA and would that lead to enough additional revenue to justify the move? I truly have no idea.

Is there more interest in Fodham vs UNH then Fordham vs LEhigh? How about FU vs Nova vs FU vs Holy Cross? Interesting question. Would games against a big state school like Delaware or UAlbany command enough attendance for us to do one game a year at Yankee Stadium?



I disagree.  The first question I would ask why is there a need to o "upgrade" at all?  What does playing in the CAA, predominately made up of state universities do for Fordham?  There won't be a significant revenue boost.  This is New York.  Does anyone think the masses will come out to see Delaware or New Hampshire?   If there was real revenue, Hofstra would still be playing football.
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« Reply #36 on: January 26, 2017, 01:07:53 am »

That said, North Alabama is going to play their football in the Big South which is FCS and is at times, but not always, multi-bid.


Interesting... Big South is where Monmouth is .... its a small FCS conference now with only ....Charleston Southern,   Liberty, Kennesaw State, Gardner-Webb,  Presbyterian, ... and Monmouth ... if they add a 7th, they'll need another.  Or drop one.

It seems to me that Monmouth belongs in the NEC....with has an odd number of teams now.

The Patriot would do well to kick out GTown if they continue to hold back...and poach Elon and Richmond from the CAA. Richmond is a jewel, but I keep hearing that they are balking at keeping up with the CAA expense. Elon is a strong academic who struggles to compete in the CAA. Together they add a good southern 1-2 punch to the Patriot footprint.

Also, with Richmond in PL football, it makes that basketball PL package better if we both choose to move to the PL together. I know that is not likely... but a PL basketball with Fordham and Richmond is much more interesting.

Oy Vay... then we could try and drag Davidson football and basketball over too.  Now that is a PL I'd be fine going all sport in.
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« Reply #37 on: January 26, 2017, 05:58:00 am »

Interesting... Big South is where Monmouth is .... its a small FCS conference now with only ....Charleston Southern,   Liberty, Kennesaw State, Gardner-Webb,  Presbyterian, ... and Monmouth ... if they add a 7th, they'll need another.  Or drop one.

It seems to me that Monmouth belongs in the NEC....with has an odd number of teams now.

The Patriot would do well to kick out GTown if they continue to hold back...and poach Elon and Richmond from the CAA. Richmond is a jewel, but I keep hearing that they are balking at keeping up with the CAA expense. Elon is a strong academic who struggles to compete in the CAA. Together they add a good southern 1-2 punch to the Patriot footprint.

Also, with Richmond in PL football, it makes that basketball PL package better if we both choose to move to the PL together. I know that is not likely... but a PL basketball with Fordham and Richmond is much more interesting.

Oy Vay... then we could try and drag Davidson football and basketball over too.  Now that is a PL I'd be fine going all sport in.


Richmond to the PL would be a great addition.  their fan base would go nuts but they'd get over it.   I can't see Davidson going scholarship in football. They were an original PL member, I seem to recall. I think they're quite happy where they are.  No scholarships for football lets them focus on basketball.  Elon would be another good PL addition. The PL needs to grow.   We're on an island now and have to rely on scheduling too many OOC games. 
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« Reply #38 on: January 26, 2017, 08:10:25 am »

If we are heading south, Furman would be a great addition as well.
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« Reply #39 on: January 26, 2017, 09:21:23 am »

It would be great if Richmond, Elon and Furman would all join PL football.  They are all a good fit for the PL (academically and athletically).

Richmond is s solid program.  Not sure about CAA expenses?  a few extra scholarships?
They do have a newer 8-10K stadium

Furman has had its ups and downs lately but a softer SoCo may make things easier.
Elon is a school on the rise, have a newer stadium but are trying to get better.
I have been to Richmond and Furman campuses and both are beautiful.

If any of these ever jumped which I do believe to be unlikely, I would guess Richmond would be the most likely option.
I think these schools would like the exposure to the NE, but in the end the travel expenses would arguably be the biggest deterrent.
Almost every road game would be a hike.

Liberty is another program that has been solid and on the rise.  Talks of them going I-A but not sure if that will ever happen, again very nice campus and larger newer stadium.
Monmouth, I would be curious to know as to why they play in the Big South as as mentioned, the NEC seems like a better fit.  They are building a news stadium.  School also seems to be on the rise.  Nice little campus and also to the beach.

What is the PL football went big and formed a 12 team conf and went North and South

NORTH
Bucknell
Colgate
Fordham
Holy Cross
Lafayette
Lehigh

SOUTH
Elon
Furman
Georgetown
Liberty
Richmond
TBA

Last spot could be: W&M, Wofford, VMI
Other possible candidates could be: Villanova, Monmouth
Possibly 2 spots could be open if PL forces G-Town out of the league.
could go 14 teams and add 2 more but I would prefer 12 as it makes scheduling cleaner and everyone pays the same teams in the division the same amount

You play all 5 teams in your division and 3 from the other division
Rotate the other 3 division teams the following year.

8 PL games total, only need 3 OOC to fill schedule
northern schools get southern exposure and vice versa
Travel for at least 5 games will be reasonable
would definitely make the PL 2 team playoff conf (minimum).
schools are all very well aligned with academics
open us more markets for TV exposure on smaller networks, SNY, CSN, ESPN 3, ASN, Etc.


With today;s day and age of flipping conferences, anything could happen.
So what do you think?
 
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« Reply #40 on: January 26, 2017, 09:37:13 am »

The PL has no desire to expand in that manner geographically. Richmond is as far as they'll want to go outside of their current footprint.
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« Reply #41 on: January 26, 2017, 09:44:48 am »

It would be great if Richmond, Elon and Furman would all join PL football.  They are all a good fit for the PL (academically and athletically).

Richmond is s solid program.  Not sure about CAA expenses?  a few extra scholarships?
They do have a newer 8-10K stadium

Furman has had its ups and downs lately but a softer SoCo may make things easier.
Elon is a school on the rise, have a newer stadium but are trying to get better.
I have been to Richmond and Furman campuses and both are beautiful.

If any of these ever jumped which I do believe to be unlikely, I would guess Richmond would be the most likely option.
I think these schools would like the exposure to the NE, but in the end the travel expenses would arguably be the biggest deterrent.
Almost every road game would be a hike.

Liberty is another program that has been solid and on the rise.  Talks of them going I-A but not sure if that will ever happen, again very nice campus and larger newer stadium.
Monmouth, I would be curious to know as to why they play in the Big South as as mentioned, the NEC seems like a better fit.  They are building a news stadium.  School also seems to be on the rise.  Nice little campus and also to the beach.

What is the PL football went big and formed a 12 team conf and went North and South

NORTH
Bucknell
Colgate
Fordham
Holy Cross
Lafayette
Lehigh

SOUTH
Elon
Furman
Georgetown
Liberty
Richmond
TBA

Last spot could be: W&M, Wofford, VMI
Other possible candidates could be: Villanova, Monmouth
Possibly 2 spots could be open if PL forces G-Town out of the league.
could go 14 teams and add 2 more but I would prefer 12 as it makes scheduling cleaner and everyone pays the same teams in the division the same amount

You play all 5 teams in your division and 3 from the other division
Rotate the other 3 division teams the following year.

8 PL games total, only need 3 OOC to fill schedule
northern schools get southern exposure and vice versa
Travel for at least 5 games will be reasonable
would definitely make the PL 2 team playoff conf (minimum).
schools are all very well aligned with academics
open us more markets for TV exposure on smaller networks, SNY, CSN, ESPN 3, ASN, Etc.


With today;s day and age of flipping conferences, anything could happen.
So what do you think?
 

I like the idea but don't you think this would start an "Arms race" to improve stadiums/facilities etc. Something we've shown we have NO interest in doing. Seems like we'd be part of a great conference, but slowly sink to the bottom as others race to the top.
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« Reply #42 on: January 26, 2017, 10:22:58 am »

It would be great if Richmond, Elon and Furman would all join PL football.  They are all a good fit for the PL (academically and athletically).

Richmond is s solid program.  Not sure about CAA expenses?  a few extra scholarships?
They do have a newer 8-10K stadium

Furman has had its ups and downs lately but a softer SoCo may make things easier.
Elon is a school on the rise, have a newer stadium but are trying to get better.
I have been to Richmond and Furman campuses and both are beautiful.

If any of these ever jumped which I do believe to be unlikely, I would guess Richmond would be the most likely option.
I think these schools would like the exposure to the NE, but in the end the travel expenses would arguably be the biggest deterrent.
Almost every road game would be a hike.

Liberty is another program that has been solid and on the rise.  Talks of them going I-A but not sure if that will ever happen, again very nice campus and larger newer stadium.
Monmouth, I would be curious to know as to why they play in the Big South as as mentioned, the NEC seems like a better fit.  They are building a news stadium.  School also seems to be on the rise.  Nice little campus and also to the beach.

What is the PL football went big and formed a 12 team conf and went North and South

NORTH
Bucknell
Colgate
Fordham
Holy Cross
Lafayette
Lehigh

SOUTH
Elon
Furman
Georgetown
Liberty
Richmond
TBA

Last spot could be: W&M, Wofford, VMI
Other possible candidates could be: Villanova, Monmouth
Possibly 2 spots could be open if PL forces G-Town out of the league.
could go 14 teams and add 2 more but I would prefer 12 as it makes scheduling cleaner and everyone pays the same teams in the division the same amount

You play all 5 teams in your division and 3 from the other division
Rotate the other 3 division teams the following year.

8 PL games total, only need 3 OOC to fill schedule
northern schools get southern exposure and vice versa
Travel for at least 5 games will be reasonable
would definitely make the PL 2 team playoff conf (minimum).
schools are all very well aligned with academics
open us more markets for TV exposure on smaller networks, SNY, CSN, ESPN 3, ASN, Etc.


With today;s day and age of flipping conferences, anything could happen.
So what do you think?
 

Nice league. Maybe in a different time...  I don't think the PL has any designs on going that big or competing with the big FCS conferences.  If Richmond is truly looking to step back a little, they would be a great pick up.  Don't see Villanova having the interest and Monmouth doesn't match academically (I'd be fine with them).  Too bad the CAA scooped up UAlbany and Stony Brook.  You could make the case for them.
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« Reply #43 on: January 26, 2017, 01:59:45 pm »

...
It seems to me that Monmouth belongs in the NEC....with has an odd number of teams now.
...

Quote from: Chaka001
...
Monmouth, I would be curious to know as to why they play in the Big South as as mentioned, the NEC seems like a better fit.
...

Monmouth was in the NEC for all sports.  When they decided to leave for the MAAC for all other sports their plan was to remain in the NEC for football.  But they never consulted with the NEC to see how they would feel about such an arrangement.  When they asked to remain, the NEC told them to take a hike and booted the Monmouth football team from the conference.  They looked around and could only come up with the Big South that would take them.
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« Reply #44 on: January 26, 2017, 02:16:09 pm »

Thanks JCMB,

Ouch on the part of Monmouth.  That would explain it. 
Their only other option would be CAA, which would not happen and Pioneer which is arguably the bottom of the barrel.

I realize this 12 team PL is more of a dream than a reality but it is fun talking about it.
I would like to think the PL has at least already done a feasibility study with any new potential members joining the conference.
 

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« Reply #45 on: January 26, 2017, 02:44:22 pm »

Their only other option would be CAA, which would not happen and Pioneer which is arguably the bottom of the barrel.



I'd respectfully argue the Pioneer League point...'bottom of the barrel'

I've had some experience talking to coaches, players and families in this unique conference.  It's key distinctions are 'no FB scholarships and a national footprint.'  They attract talented players whose families are willing and able to pay the freight of college costs.  As a parent of a football prospect, it finally dawned on my wife and I that a free ride in a school you'd otherwise avoid, isn't a great lifetime bargain.  (ie..Truman State University wants to offer a DII scholarship, or even FBS Toledo  .... but you can afford to go to Davidson)

University of San Diego, Butler, Drake, Davidson ..... plus two Florida schools, a New York school, Carolina, Kentucky, Ohio.  For board readers interested in what it's like to play FCS football, while paying to attend the school, the  links below are great looks at Drake and Dayton.  For a coach, the players are arguably the most dedicated, loyal, committed types of kids.  More likely to stay at the school.... and I really like the odds that they will be willing, and able, to give back and stay connected when their playing days are over.

I understand that it's not for everyone ..... but it works for an interesting group of student athletes.

How it goes at Drake....
http://timesdelphic.com/2015/12/17/no-scholarships-no-problem

How it works at Dayton.....
http://m.springfieldnewssun.com/news/sports/college/ud-finds-not-giving-football-scholarships-to-be--1/nM48w/

Pioneer League Standings
http://www.pioneer-football.org/standings/2016/

By the way, Pioneer champ  U of San Diego won their first round playoff game in this year's FCS Championships .... over a schollie school.
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« Reply #46 on: January 26, 2017, 10:54:59 pm »

scott not bashing nor discrediting the Pioneer, not their coaches or players and their dedication and would actually agree with those theories.  But I am simply referring to talent levels.
 
Just be willing to bet (without chasing stats) that most Pschools would not favor well against scholarship leagues.  Sure they may a a few good teams and win some games but the overall scope of work would likely yields a losing percentage.

The PL is historically a 1 bid playoff conf.
How many PL teams are going to lose to Marist?
By the way Marist came in 3rd place and their overall was 5-6, was 0-2 against PL powers Bucknell and G/Town.
Pioneer, only 3 of the 11 teams had a wining record.
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« Reply #47 on: January 27, 2017, 10:04:26 am »

scott not bashing nor discrediting the Pioneer, not their coaches or players and their dedication and would actually agree with those theories.  But I am simply referring to talent levels.
 
Just be willing to bet (without chasing stats) that most Pschools would not favor well against scholarship leagues.  Sure they may a a few good teams and win some games but the overall scope of work would likely yields a losing percentage.

The PL is historically a 1 bid playoff conf.
How many PL teams are going to lose to Marist?
By the way Marist came in 3rd place and their overall was 5-6, was 0-2 against PL powers Bucknell and G/Town.
Pioneer, only 3 of the 11 teams had a wining record.

I'm sure that's correct Chaka...but I don't like Lehigh's chances against San Diego's team right now.  I'd love to have Fordham look into an extended series with San Diego. It would be a way for both teams to meet recruits, and be an attractive travel incentive to prospects.....but they do travel to Poughkeepsie!

With Marist tossing their Catholicism into the Hudson, perhaps San Diego vs Fordham becomes a new RC rivalry?  Certainly two of the most beautiful campuses in the country.
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« Reply #48 on: January 27, 2017, 11:34:31 am »

I'm sure that's correct Chaka...but I don't like Lehigh's chances against San Diego's team right now.  I'd love to have Fordham look into an extended series with San Diego. It would be a way for both teams to meet recruits, and be an attractive travel incentive to prospects.....but they do travel to Poughkeepsie!

With Marist tossing their Catholicism into the Hudson, perhaps San Diego vs Fordham becomes a new RC rivalry?  Certainly two of the most beautiful campuses in the country.


If we're going to spend big money on travel for games and recruiting strategy is part of the plan, i don't see us getting much bang going to SAN Diego, especially on a regular basis.  Sounds fun but are there that many good players in that area who want to come across the country?    I'd like to see us focus on Florida and Texas.  That's where you want to see players. I cant see us developing a rivalry with a school in Cali.  Catholic connection... who really cares today? 
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« Reply #49 on: January 27, 2017, 08:11:02 pm »

If we're going to spend big money on travel for games and recruiting strategy is part of the plan, i don't see us getting much bang going to SAN Diego, especially on a regular basis.  Sounds fun but are there that many good players in that area who want to come across the country?    I'd like to see us focus on Florida and Texas.  That's where you want to see players. I cant see us developing a rivalry with a school in Cali.  Catholic connection... who really cares today? 

I care Coach... and so do the hundreds in line with me, right now, waiting to say confession!  Grin Wink
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« Reply #50 on: January 27, 2017, 08:21:19 pm »

I'm sure that's correct Chaka...but I don't like Lehigh's chances against San Diego's team right now.  I'd love to have Fordham look into an extended series with San Diego. It would be a way for both teams to meet recruits, and be an attractive travel incentive to prospects.....but they do travel to Poughkeepsie!

With Marist tossing their Catholicism into the Hudson, perhaps San Diego vs Fordham becomes a new RC rivalry?  Certainly two of the most beautiful campuses in the country.

I wouldn't mind some USD games, although I'd like to see SMU and Rice games first, with Texas being a hotbed for football.

Agree as to the beauty of the campuses.
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« Reply #51 on: January 27, 2017, 09:58:39 pm »

Why wouldn't the Patriot League push Boston University to add football? This would seem the easiest to get done.
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« Reply #52 on: January 27, 2017, 10:30:05 pm »

Why wouldn't the Patriot League push Boston University to add football? This would seem the easiest to get done.

Not going to happen.  They dropped football because their students had zero interest.  Remember, it's a hockey school first and foremost, basketball is like a filler for when they aren't playing hockey (they had 480 for their men's basketball game vs. Colgate on Wed, Jan 18). 

They were smart to focus on something and do well in that, and it seems to have worked for them.  Not saying Fordham should drop football, just that BU did what I think in retrospect was the right move.  Same thing with Northeastern.
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« Reply #53 on: January 28, 2017, 11:19:56 am »

HS friend played football there, nobody ever showed up.
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« Reply #54 on: January 28, 2017, 12:07:20 pm »

I'm visiting my son who lives near Monmouth. Talking about the school and mentioning how it came up in this thread, I looked up their sched for next year. First six games, all OOC -
Lafayette, Lehigh, Albany, Hampton, Bucknell, Holy Cross
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« Reply #55 on: January 28, 2017, 12:34:29 pm »

I'm visiting my son who lives near Monmouth. Talking about the school and mentioning how it came up in this thread, I looked up their sched for next year. First six games, all OOC -
Lafayette, Lehigh, Albany, Hampton, Bucknell, Holy Cross

There's only 6 football playing members of the Big South Conference next year.  The final five games for Monmouth are against all the other in conference teams.  Monmouth must incur some big expenses travelling for football.  Chris Hogan of the New England Patriots played his only season of collegiate football at Monmouth according to their website.  I've been to Monmouth a number of times over the last 25 years mostly on work-related visits and saw tremendous growth at the campus which is very nice.  The mansion (used in the film Annie) is called Wilson Hall and is used as their main administration building.  It is beautiful inside and out.
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« Reply #56 on: January 29, 2017, 10:14:32 am »

Not going to happen.  They dropped football because their students had zero interest. 

Let's be careful about that. In 1995, Boston U. averaged 5,612 a game. That's a larger average than the following PL teams in 2016:

Fordham: 5,416
Bucknell: 3,324
Georgetown: 2,005
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« Reply #57 on: January 29, 2017, 06:02:42 pm »

BU has the money, but I doubt they have the desire to bring back FB.  In addition to M&W Hockey, BU offers M&W Lacrosse.  The PL is not the ACC, but it is a strong conference for Lacrosse nonetheless.  The PL has nine of its member schools participating in LAX, in some real hotbeds for the sport.  BU gets to compete with good academic schools at a high level.  The NCAA also requires fewer scholarships for LAX than FB, making it cheaper to support.  Unlike FU, BU has not had a history in FB.  BU must feel they can do more with LAX than FB.  What I don't understand is why Johns Hopkins plays LAX in the B10 and not the PL.  Huh?
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« Reply #58 on: January 29, 2017, 06:50:30 pm »

BU has the money, but I doubt they have the desire to bring back FB.  In addition to M&W Hockey, BU offers M&W Lacrosse.  The PL is not the ACC, but it is a strong conference for Lacrosse nonetheless.  The PL has nine of its member schools participating in LAX, in some real hotbeds for the sport.  BU gets to compete with good academic schools at a high level.  The NCAA also requires fewer scholarships for LAX than FB, making it cheaper to support.  Unlike FU, BU has not had a history in FB.  BU must feel they can do more with LAX than FB.  What I don't understand is why Johns Hopkins plays LAX in the B10 and not the PL.  Huh?

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« Reply #59 on: January 29, 2017, 07:10:18 pm »

BU has the money, but I doubt they have the desire to bring back FB.  In addition to M&W Hockey, BU offers M&W Lacrosse.  The PL is not the ACC, but it is a strong conference for Lacrosse nonetheless.  The PL has nine of its member schools participating in LAX, in some real hotbeds for the sport.  BU gets to compete with good academic schools at a high level.  The NCAA also requires fewer scholarships for LAX than FB, making it cheaper to support.  Unlike FU, BU has not had a history in FB.  BU must feel they can do more with LAX than FB.  What I don't understand is why Johns Hopkins plays LAX in the B10 and not the PL.  Huh?

BU played football from the 1880's until 1997 with the exception of the war years.  I wouldn't say that's no history.

A few years ago it was recommended by an internal committee that John Hopkins explore options to join a conference.  After looking at several possible affiliations, they decided the new Big 10 conference was the best option.  I'd bet money had something to do with the choice...  Patriot League is very good lacrosse but would you want to be in a conference with Michigan and Ohio State or Bucknell and Lehigh?
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