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Not sure how people think this was a good season


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Author Topic: Not sure how people think this was a good season  (Read 3395 times)
RamFan78
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« Reply #30 on: March 19, 2017, 02:36:50 pm »

Just a couple of numbers to throw out there.

We scored 2090 points this year, and assuming the roster stays intact, 79.1% of our scoring will be back next season. That's not typically a bad thing (and, no, don't tell me the number is to be devalued because our players stink, they don't).

In addition to 1653 points of returning scoring, other players will, if the roster stays intact, bring an additional 1,705 career points of scoring back. That would mean that next year's team brings 3,358 of career scoring into the season.

So JN won't have a "we're young", or "inexperienced" excuse next season (not that he's ever used it, but his predecessor never tired of it). We add Hicks, hopefully we add a couple more pieces. Unless the recruits of other A-10 schools have capes and an "S" on their chests, we have a chance for a major move forward in the conference.

The team can still practice until the NCAA tourney ends. Has anyone seen a post-season practice? Any of the wounded back?

So let me get this straight. We finished 10th in the conference this year, so far we have no commitments and just because most of the team comes back we are going to make a major move forward? Like no one else in the conference is going to get better because of returning starters and none of their commitments are going to contribute. Not every school ahead of us or for that matter behind us is losing major players. And for some programs that do such as a Dayton or VCU you wouldn't wanna bet they reload damn quickly. When was the last time one of those schools was not near or at the top of the conference?

Want another fact to consider. Its probably more reasonable to assume based on history that most of the other programs are more likely to get recruits that impact their program the first year than we are.

I think its great we have some consistency with the roster in some cases but unless we improve the talent level we will be stuck in mediocrity in the A10.
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« Reply #31 on: March 19, 2017, 02:47:59 pm »

So let me get this straight. We finished 10th in the conference this year, so far we have no commitments and just because most of the team comes back we are going to make a major move forward? Like no one else in the conference is going to get better because of returning starters and none of their commitments are going to contribute. Not every school ahead of us or for that matter behind us is losing major players. And for some programs that do such as a Dayton or VCU you wouldn't wanna bet they reload damn quickly. When was the last time one of those schools was not near or at the top of the conference?

Want another fact to consider. Its probably more reasonable to assume based on history that most of the other programs are more likely to get recruits that impact their program the first year than we are.

I think its great we have some consistency with the roster in some cases but unless we improve the talent level we will be stuck in mediocrity in the A10.

Without knowing what you consider *near* the top, I will throw out these two:
2013-14: Dayton 6th
2012-13: Dayton 12th

You can keep going back from there and it is not great, but surely results we'd be ok with most years. They have a lot graduating and Miller potentially moving on.

For us, this whole thing is a building process. We are not going to out-recruit the A10, not now and not in the foreseeable future. We need to find player with potential and develop them. We need to rely on that for now. I know some feel we can recruit top athletes b/c we have landed some in the past, but most of those heralded players came with issues or baggage.

One positive I see going forward is that I feel this program has an identity finally. We play tough D and that is not expected to change. Follow that up with some better offense and we might make some noise. It's a process though.
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« Reply #32 on: March 19, 2017, 03:01:23 pm »

So let me get this straight we are now stuck with mediocrity?   We were a laughing stock two years ago so that is an improvement.  Now for the next step.  Fact: Adding Hicks and Slanina is like adding two recruits with experience.  they are the equivalent of early signees. We went 7-11 in conference without them and with Havsa/Ohams just getting their feet wet.  So yeah there is reason to optimistic we can make a jump this year, need to add offense we all know that but unlike other years whole sale changes are not needed.
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« Reply #33 on: March 19, 2017, 03:13:17 pm »

So let me get this straight. We finished 10th in the conference this year, so far we have no commitments and just because most of the team comes back we are going to make a major move forward? Like no one else in the conference is going to get better because of returning starters and none of their commitments are going to contribute. Not every school ahead of us or for that matter behind us is losing major players. And for some programs that do such as a Dayton or VCU you wouldn't wanna bet they reload damn quickly. When was the last time one of those schools was not near or at the top of the conference?

Want another fact to consider. Its probably more reasonable to assume based on history that most of the other programs are more likely to get recruits that impact their program the first year than we are.

I think its great we have some consistency with the roster in some cases but unless we improve the talent level we will be stuck in mediocrity in the A10.

Well, yeah, with a lot of returning experience on a 10th place team that might have done better but for (1) early season style-of-play issues, and (2) late season injury problems, I think we have cause to be reasonably optimistic. Lots of variables, as Ace points out. But sometimes, you just have to channel Coach Norman Dale and say "my team is on the court". Hopefully between now and next season there will be some helpful additions to that team. At Fordham, we've gotten into the habit of hoping that some miracle recruit will come through the doors and turn things around. Unless some tall kid named Chitwood is walking into JN's office and saying "I figure it's about time I started playing", that probably isn't going to happen.  And on the recent occasions when something like that did happen -- Jon Severe, then Eric Paschall -- the "savior" didn't save us. Both had wildly inefficient freshman years on losing teams (which lacked experienced players). One left, the other didn't become the "X" factor for us.  I think we're in a much better situation now, where if we did get a hot-shot newcomer, they'd learn that PT is earned, not just handed out.

The other thing I like about our returning players is that they generally have much more mental toughness than I sensed from players under prior regimes. They've been in battle against good squads and (unlike their predecessors) they won some of those battles. That is something that dearly needed to happen in this program.
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« Reply #34 on: March 19, 2017, 05:31:09 pm »

 And on the recent occasions when something like that did happen -- Jon Severe, then Eric Paschall -- the "savior" didn't save us. Both had wildly inefficient freshman years on losing teams (which lacked experienced players). One left, the other didn't become the "X" factor for us.  I think we're in a much better situation now, where if we did get a hot-shot newcomer, they'd learn that PT is earned, not just handed out.


have to take issue with your "wildly inefficient freshman years" description for Severe ( A10 All Rookie selection ) and Paschall ( A10 Rookie of the Year )    deserved honors or did the Russians tamper with the voting ? 

I will take recruits of that caliber 8 days a week. hot-shot newcomers help numerous programs in the country and help attract others . I recall numerous Christ the King players at the RHG at games in Severe's frosh season. We didn't land any and JS and EP did not lift the program as hoped but you have to land that type of player with some regularity if you want to rise to top 4 in A-10. 
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« Reply #35 on: March 19, 2017, 05:43:38 pm »

So let me get this straight we are now stuck with mediocrity?   We were a laughing stock two years ago so that is an improvement.  Now for the next step.  Fact: Adding Hicks and Slanina is like adding two recruits with experience.  they are the equivalent of early signees. We went 7-11 in conference without them and with Havsa/Ohams just getting their feet wet.  So yeah there is reason to optimistic we can make a jump this year, need to add offense we all know that but unlike other years whole sale changes are not needed.

My exact quote is below. I didn't say we are stuck in mediocrity. What I said is unless we improve the talent level we will be stuck in mediocrity which is what a lot of others have said. Big difference.

I think its great we have some consistency with the roster in some cases but unless we improve the talent level we will be stuck in mediocrity in the A10.
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« Reply #36 on: March 19, 2017, 05:51:07 pm »

Without knowing what you consider *near* the top, I will throw out these two:
2013-14: Dayton 6th
2012-13: Dayton 12th

You can keep going back from there and it is not great, but surely results we'd be ok with most years. They have a lot graduating and Miller potentially moving on.

For us, this whole thing is a building process. We are not going to out-recruit the A10, not now and not in the foreseeable future. We need to find player with potential and develop them. We need to rely on that for now. I know some feel we can recruit top athletes b/c we have landed some in the past, but most of those heralded players came with issues or baggage.

One positive I see going forward is that I feel this program has an identity finally. We play tough D and that is not expected to change. Follow that up with some better offense and we might make some noise. It's a process though.

Well if you want to be precise sure they were in 6th place back in 2013-14. Actually tied with UMass in 5th with a 10-6 record and 26-10 overall. SLU won the conference with a 13-3 record. Winning 26 games in a season nothing to sneeze about. in 2012-13 they only went 7-9 in the conference but 17-14 overall definitely a down year. Still consider them a consistently winning program in our conference and one that is "more often than not" close to the top.
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« Reply #37 on: March 19, 2017, 06:03:57 pm »



Like I said, I did not know what you considered "near", so thought I would provide some info since you asked when the last time was that they were not near or at the top. Had you said "more often than not" then, I likely do not reply to that part of your post.
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« Reply #38 on: March 19, 2017, 06:10:16 pm »

My exact quote is below. I didn't say we are stuck in mediocrity. What I said is unless we improve the talent level we will be stuck in mediocrity which is what a lot of others have said. Big difference.

I think its great we have some consistency with the roster in some cases but unless we improve the talent level we will be stuck in mediocrity in the A10.

Got it if we we don't get better we won't win more games.  Thanks.
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« Reply #39 on: March 19, 2017, 06:16:47 pm »

So is anybody here really saying we don't need to bring in more talent? I think there are differing opinions as to how much talent we currently have, but even if we bring in one or two guys we still need our current players to improve. Additionally, Hicks is a newcomer for all intents and purposes.
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« Reply #40 on: March 19, 2017, 06:25:50 pm »

So is anybody here really saying we don't need to bring in more talent? I think there are differing opinions as to how much talent we currently have, but even if we bring in one or two guys we still need our current players to improve. Additionally, Hicks is a newcomer for all intents and purposes.

I consider Slanina Ohams and Havsa all essentially new comers. Slanina because of injuries and getting used to the game.  Ohams and Havsa barely played until the end of the year, their development makes them essentially new players.  Not directed at you but the idea we are going to recruit our way to the top is Pecora think.  We need to develop our way to the top and add pieces around these guys to fill gaps especially on offense. 

Dayton and VCU have 4 seniors each graduating.  You don't easily replace those guys both teams are more vulnerable than they have ever been and we have a better foundation than we have had in many years.  Don't be surprised if Wade and Miller leave for P5 schools this year but even if they stay they have their work cut out for them. 
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« Reply #41 on: March 19, 2017, 06:38:32 pm »

I consider Slanina Ohams and Havsa all essentially new comers. Slanina because of injuries and getting used to the game.  Ohams and Havsa barely played until the end of the year, their development makes them essentially new players.  Not directed at you but the idea we are going to recruit our way to the top is Pecora think.  We need to develop our way to the top and add pieces around these guys to fill gaps especially on offense. 

Dayton and VCU have 4 seniors each graduating.  You don't easily replace those guys both teams are more vulnerable than they have ever been and we have a better foundation than we have had in many years.  Don't be surprised if Wade and Miller leave for P5 schools this year but even if they stay they have their work cut out for them. 

Could not agree more with the recruiting. We have to build a program and you do that by developing players.

Also agree on Dayton and VCU. They might struggle either way, but if they lose their coaches things will get rocky.

Not sure I agree on Ohams and Havsa, they were freshmen and part of the group we need to improve. Half agree on Slanina since he played so little due to different injuries.
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« Reply #42 on: March 19, 2017, 07:09:32 pm »

My exact quote is below. I didn't say we are stuck in mediocrity. What I said is unless we improve the talent level we will be stuck in mediocrity which is what a lot of others have said. Big difference.

I think its great we have some consistency with the roster in some cases but unless we improve the talent level we will be stuck in mediocrity in the A10.

No.  We haven't got to mediocrity yet.  That's .500 ball.  We're still not there.  I think a number of people are not realistic about where the program stands.  We're not terrible anymore.  That's a plus but we have quite a way to go.
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« Reply #43 on: March 19, 2017, 08:36:54 pm »

OK. Just to recap: this season was neither good nor a success, despite what the voices in his or her head told the original poster.  On a somewhat - but not really - related note, we need to bring in better players if the program is going to improve.  Now what about our facilities?  We need to build a new arena and convocation center, with state of the art training facilities, if we're going to compete in this conference!
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« Reply #44 on: March 19, 2017, 08:52:18 pm »

Dude, at the beginning of December you declared Neubauer had driven this program into the ground, and that hypothesis was summarily destroyed.  Three months later you're refuting a claim that, as far as I can tell, no one ever made.  I cited posts from Richie68 and Rich93 to rebut your most recent delusion, and we can add Drunkle's post to that list.  Two types of people in this world, Madram ...

Yes I did declare that after the non conference disaster , losing to Manhattan college and sacred heart. Showed some flashes in A-10 playbbutbstoll finished with a losing record in the a-10 worse than last year so what's your point?

I'm sorry that you don't agree with me
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« Reply #45 on: March 20, 2017, 09:00:27 am »

Yes I did declare that after the non conference disaster , losing to Manhattan college and sacred heart. Showed some flashes in A-10 playbbutbstoll finished with a losing record in the a-10 worse than last year so what's your point?

I'm sorry that you don't agree with me
No need to apologize.  My point is that you tend to make outlandish statements about the program that have no basis in reality, that are invariably corrected or refuted by other posters.  I thought I was pretty clear.  You're entitled to your opinion, but you make these statements of fact and they're usually absurd.
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« Reply #46 on: March 20, 2017, 09:52:35 am »

Madram, you're right. There was definitely a feeling of euphoria after our two buzzer-beater wins. Seems to me there was talk of COTY!  Then reality set in. Why some feel the necessity to attack a poster for telling it like it is speaks more about the attackers than the messenger.
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« Reply #47 on: March 20, 2017, 09:57:33 am »

So your analysis of the season comes down to Anderson missing a free throw?   

Improvement next year starts with the current players like Ohams and a Havsa improving because that adds players to the rotation.  Ignoring our starting center and Hicks being injured ignores facts.  They come back it is adding two more players.  that is the way good A-10 teams are built.  All three tournament teams were upperclassmen heavy because they developed their players and then supplemented with a few underclassman.  We have the foundation to have a good season next year with the addition of a couple of pieces this spring.

This idea that the best teams in the A-10 are built with some hot shot 1 and done recruits is nonsense. Yes things change rapidly in CBB these day but the best teams in our league have a core of upperclassmen. It takes time to build depth in a program.
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« Reply #48 on: March 20, 2017, 10:04:23 am »

we had a 10 plus page poll/thread about whether or not the program was in free fall mid season.   I hardly think that is indicative of most or even more than just a couple of posters thinking we had a good season.

This was not a good season, it was a very bizarre season, it was odd, it was inconsistent, it was frustrating, but it was not good overall.

Next year is year 3 and no free pass. This year proved why every ship is so important. Luckily we had some quality depth but we did also eat a scholarship. 

I concur that the recruiting is problematic. We held a ship and appear not even have had a sniff from a mid year transfer. We also signed nobody in early period. I think that to be in the mix to be a post season team, we need to do both of those things and continue trying to find 5th year guys.
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« Reply #49 on: March 20, 2017, 10:29:15 am »

It is who you sign and their skill sets that matter, not when you sign them.  We had one early commit last year Tavares just so happens he turned out to be the most disappointing player during conference play.  The late signees Ohams Havsa and Slanina were the ones who showed promise.  Hawkins late signing was inconsistent but had some big games in wins. No A-10 team got a mid year transfer as far as I know.  there are not that many of them. So we wait and see what the staff comes up with to add to our foundation.

Fact: this team was a mess but pulled it together to get two top 50 wins and a top 100 win down the stretch.   That means with a depleted roster we beat several top teams in the conference and the nation. That does not make the season good but it was entertaining down the stretch, frustrating but entertaining. Also note in 15-16 we had 1 top 100 win 0 top 50 wins but we did a better job of avoiding those bad losses.   We were also a Foul shot away from getting to Friday in the A-10 tournament.

So next year we need to put it all together, year one example of no bad losses with last year's ability to win some games against top teams.  The foundation is there for that seeason to happen just need to add some offense by way of player improvement and 2 recruits. 
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« Reply #50 on: March 20, 2017, 10:33:29 am »

It is who you sign and their skill sets that matter, not when you sign them.  We had one early commit last year Tavares just so happens he turned out to be the most disappointing player during conference play.  The late signees Ohams Havsa and Slanina were the ones who showed promise.  Hawkins late signing was inconsistent but had some big games in wins. No A-10 team got a mid year transfer as far as I know.  there are not that many of them. So we wait and see what the staff comes up with to add to our foundation.

Fact: this team was a mess but pulled it together to get two top 50 wins and a top 100 win down the stretch.   That means with a depleted roster we beat several top teams in the conference and the nation. That does not make the season good but it was entertaining down the stretch, frustrating but entertaining. We were also a Foul shot away from getting to Friday in the A-10 tournament.

I agree that the midseason transfer list usually leaves something to be desired and I was not impressed with the list this season, but both La Salle and St. Louis got midseason transfers this season.

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/18325059/2016-2017-college-basketball-transfer-list

That said, I am not sure how 85 knows we did not appear to get a sniff from anyone. Need to go to his inside knowledge more often.
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« Reply #51 on: March 20, 2017, 10:36:49 am »

having two teams get them is a significant number I stand corrected. I am not a fan of mid year transfers.  Quitters.
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« Reply #52 on: March 20, 2017, 10:38:27 am »

Then if you guys are such fans of same, why eat a scholarship?   You have 13 ships, unless you are holding one for a mid year transfer why eat one?   

Some of the speculation at this juncture is idiotic. We have 2 guys who are coming off surgery. 2 guys who can graduate this year and go elsewhere and historically we lose at least 2 to transfer out. 
We will need to wait until the first practice to see who is on the team and how we shape up.
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« Reply #53 on: March 20, 2017, 10:39:26 am »

Madram, you're right. There was definitely a feeling of euphoria after our two buzzer-beater wins. Seems to me there was talk of COTY!  Then reality set in. Why some feel the necessity to attack a poster for telling it like it is speaks more about the attackers than the messenger.

Of course there was euphoria, and with good reason.  The team had beat 2 top 50 teams on their home floor, all while playing shorthanded.  That is not the OP's premise, though; he (she?) is arguing that too many people are claiming the season was a success even upon its completion, a claim that is fact free.
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« Reply #54 on: March 20, 2017, 10:41:52 am »

Then if you guys are such fans of same, why eat a scholarship? 

What I am a fan of means nothing. The coach may like the idea of a mid year transfer.  Also it is not unusual to roll a scholarship to th next year to balance classes.  This year if we did not hold open a ship we would potentially only have one available to give.  So if you are not thrilled with your options you hold it open for next year.
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« Reply #55 on: March 20, 2017, 10:45:01 am »

If you did not enjoy that run mid conference season you are a miserable loser and should cease watching college basketball.  Our team unlike many of us fans, dug deep and got some great wins.  They made basketball matter when most of us thought the season was over and showed guts.  Once again only a loser would not have enjoyed that stretch miserable loser.
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« Reply #56 on: March 20, 2017, 10:46:52 am »

Then if you guys are such fans of same, why eat a scholarship?   You have 13 ships, unless you are holding one for a mid year transfer why eat one?  

Some of the speculation at this juncture is idiotic. We have 2 guys who are coming off surgery. 2 guys who can graduate this year and go elsewhere and historically we lose at least 2 to transfer out. 
We will need to wait until the first practice to see who is on the team and how we shape up.

You don't use a scholarship just b/c you have it and feel the need to fill it. You hold it for the right player. It is not as if we were down to 8 scholarship players during the off-season and decided to hold onto one anyway.

I agree we need to wait until we see who is on the roster come September.
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« Reply #57 on: March 20, 2017, 10:50:12 am »

This is the one year I would give the coach and the team an asterisk.  Slanina, Zarko, Hicks, Pekarek and at times JC, that's too much for a program to endure in 1 year.  If in fact, Zarko and Pekarek played so poorly because they were playing injured.

I like the 5th year players.  Hopefully that trend continues. Will be interesting to see if Tavares leaves. Or more interesting, will Zarko and/or Pekarek be back and/or able to contribute? Granted they may have been injured but to an extent, I viewed it as addition by subtraction this year.
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« Reply #58 on: March 20, 2017, 10:53:17 am »

Then if you guys are such fans of same, why eat a scholarship?   You have 13 ships, unless you are holding one for a mid year transfer why eat one?   

Some of the speculation at this juncture is idiotic. We have 2 guys who are coming off surgery. 2 guys who can graduate this year and go elsewhere and historically we lose at least 2 to transfer out. 
We will need to wait until the first practice to see who is on the team and how we shape up.

Your last paragraph cuts off a discussion which is fine because this is all speculation.  Personally I assume guys will be back for the purpose of discussion.  I understand transfers happen but we have no way of knowing who is going or staying so for this discussion I assume they will stay, not much more we can do.  However no one is counting on Zarko or Pekarek so invoking them is a red herring.  Hicks was practicing and if the red shirt rules were different would have played. We saw what Slanina can do.  We saw Ohams and Havsa.  So the opinions are educated, by no means this is a sure thing but there is evidence to support the position.
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« Reply #59 on: March 20, 2017, 11:03:55 am »

Well, it would be helpful, I think, if JN were to go on WFUV with a season-end interview and touch on some of these issues.  I assume he'll be at the Final Four in a couple of weeks, and if WFUV's got someone there covering it, that might be a good time.  Most programs seem to do more fan outreach on these types of issues. We did OK last year, but seemed to fall off this season, especially after the rocky start.  It's time to hear from the coach.
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