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Golden Ram
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« on: March 31, 2017, 07:53:24 am »

Last year it was Severe. This year Anderson and Seinfelder.  Good players with experience and eligibility left.
Why are we unable to retain them?
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« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2017, 08:23:05 am »

Its the culture of mens basketball. Not just Fordham. Princeton has 2 players leaving, I mean you get accepted to Princeton for god sakes you should stay there. Penn State quickly has 3 on the list. UVA is not only one of the best schools in the country, it wins and has the almighty great facilitiesThey have annually had either the highest or close to the highest budgets in D1.

Many here want to chime in on nonsense like losing culture, facilties and yada yada. Wrong!

The answer is this is the millennial culture at its finest. A bunch of social media crazed, me generations kids who have zero accountability and feel entitled to break contracts, break the rules and do whatever they want.  Let me post on Instagram Im leaving, oh I dont actually have a release yet but Ill tell the world.

How does this transfer craze end? When some conference with some gonads starts to deny releases.

Why cant the above happen? Because college basketball talent is woefully diluted. 351 teams is too many so every school is fighting over the same players. Too many teams, too many scholarships, not enough talent to fill true D1 rosters. Hence, the musical chairs. 
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« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2017, 08:27:21 am »

Its the culture of mens basketball. Not just Fordham. Princeton has 2 players leaving, I mean you get accepted to Princeton for god sakes you should stay there. Penn State quickly has 3 on the list. UVA is not only one of the best schools in the country, it wins and has the almighty great facilities  for a good stretch recently had the largest budget in D1.

Many here want to chime in on nonsense like losing culture, facilties and yada yada. Wrong!

The answer is this is the millennial culture at its finest. A bunch of social media crazed, me generations kids who have zero accountability and feel entitled to break contracts, break the rules and do whatever they want. 

How does this transfer craze end? When some conference with some gonads starts to deny releases.

Why cant the above happen? Because college basketball talent is woefully diluted. 351 teams is too many so every school is fighting over the same players. Too many teams, too many scholarships, not enough talent to fill true D1 rosters. Hence, the musical chairs. 



85, I think you hit it on the head. Usually, the most simple explanation is the correct one.
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« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2017, 08:29:40 am »

Its really just a crazy situation now in college basketball.  And it hits across all lines. The IVYs are getting hit every year like this and so is every conference. Truly out of control and getting worse every year.
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« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2017, 08:30:55 am »

Why cant the above happen? Because college basketball talent is woefully diluted. 351 teams is too many so every school is fighting over the same players. Too many teams, too many scholarships, not enough talent to fill true D1 rosters. Hence, the musical chairs. 

Never really thought about this -- great point. I think you're right.
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« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2017, 08:38:27 am »

Its the culture of mens basketball. Not just Fordham. Princeton has 2 players leaving, I mean you get accepted to Princeton for god sakes you should stay there. Penn State quickly has 3 on the list. UVA is not only one of the best schools in the country, it wins and has the almighty great facilitiesThey have annually had either the highest or close to the highest budgets in D1.

Many here want to chime in on nonsense like losing culture, facilties and yada yada. Wrong!

The answer is this is the millennial culture at its finest. A bunch of social media crazed, me generations kids who have zero accountability and feel entitled to break contracts, break the rules and do whatever they want.  Let me post on Instagram Im leaving, oh I dont actually have a release yet but Ill tell the world.

How does this transfer craze end? When some conference with some gonads starts to deny releases.

Why cant the above happen? Because college basketball talent is woefully diluted. 351 teams is too many so every school is fighting over the same players. Too many teams, too many scholarships, not enough talent to fill true D1 rosters. Hence, the musical chairs. 


Great post.  People talk about college basketball like every team is Kentucky and the players are being screwed.  They hear this crap and the entitlement mind set sets in.  News flash: kids get more out of this than the schools and it is getting to the point that fans like me are going to stop watching and simply go to NBA games because these kids don't appreciate the opportunity they are given.   
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« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2017, 09:10:19 am »

...and it is getting to the point that fans like me are going to stop watching and simply go to NBA games because these kids don't appreciate the opportunity they are given.   

And NBA players do?  Have you watched the Knicks lately?
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« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2017, 09:22:27 am »

Great post.  People talk about college basketball like every team is Kentucky and the players are being screwed.  They hear this crap and the entitlement mind set sets in.  News flash: kids get more out of this than the schools and it is getting to the point that fans like me are going to stop watching and simply go to NBA games because these kids don't appreciate the opportunity they are given.   

That's quite the generalization... "kids don't appreciate the opportunity they're given." Not sure how you can make that leap, at least at Fordham. Unless you know these kids personally, know their situation and know why they made the decision, you really cant assume what they do or do not appreciate.

JS, CS and AA held up their end of the bargain. They were given a scholarship to play basketball as an undergraduate at Fordham. They graduated and now want to experience something different. From a basketball perspective, what are we offering or providing that's so great? Empty 3k seat gyms on a weekly basis? Students and Alums that really don't care? From an academic perspective, they clearly took advantage of their situation by earning their credits and graduating. Good for them.

No-one complained when lesser talents transferred. I didn't hear anyone call them disloyal. I didn't hear anyone call out Fordham for driving away kids they probably shouldn't have recruited to begin with. It makes me sick to see people on this board go after young Fordham men that by all accounts did the right thing, studied, graduated and are now moving on. It seems petty to me, honestly.

I'm all about trying to find solutions to the broader transfer problem. I don't blame "millennial culture" though. I blame the NCAA for fostering this behavior by creating the rules the students are taking advantage of. I blame schools for tampering - I don't believe for a second that this isn't a rampant problem. Change the rules. Figure it out.
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« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2017, 09:27:31 am »

Blaming this on "millenials" is pure crankery. The college basketball universe above the players' heads (and it for sure is not limited to basketball) is just as frenetic and unsettled, and doesn't have the same transfer restrictions. Head coaches bolt frequently; assistants shuffle around constantly. Trying to keep up with the changes in instructional and logistical staff of college basketball teams—paid positions, mind you!—in Division I is like trying to track raindrops as they come into a storm drain. And it's somehow the kids that are too cavalier with their willingness to walk away from teams, etc.? Please.

Division I athletics holds students to a blood oath, and their coaches are in open relationships.
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« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2017, 09:30:29 am »

And NBA players do?  Have you watched the Knicks lately?

I did not know only the Knicks play in the NBA. 

Everyone is to blame except the players. I am not playing enough I want a nicer locker I don't want anyone to get on me when we lose but want the credit when we win I want to be praised for good games but not criticized for bad games I don't want a coach to criticize me when I make a stupid play I don't want to be called out for joking with an opponent when we are getting hammered I want fans to ignore our embarrassing games and just remeber the good ones I want to treat this like a business but not have others do the same coach isn't my friend he yells. It goes on and on and I have had enough. 
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« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2017, 09:40:23 am »

That's quite the generalization... "kids don't appreciate the opportunity they're given." Not sure how you can make that leap, at least at Fordham. Unless you know these kids personally, know their situation and know why they made the decision, you really cant assume what they do or do not appreciate.

JS, CS and AA held up their end of the bargain. They were given a scholarship to play basketball as an undergraduate at Fordham. They graduated and now want to experience something different. From a basketball perspective, what are we offering or providing that's so great? Empty 3k seat gyms on a weekly basis? Students and Alums that really don't care? From an academic perspective, they clearly took advantage of their situation by earning their credits and graduating. Good for them.

No-one complained when lesser talents transferred. I didn't hear anyone call them disloyal. I didn't hear anyone call out Fordham for driving away kids they probably shouldn't have recruited to begin with. It makes me sick to see people on this board go after young Fordham men that by all accounts did the right thing, studied, graduated and are now moving on. It seems petty to me, honestly.

I'm all about trying to find solutions to the broader transfer problem. I don't blame "millennial culture" though. I blame the NCAA for fostering this behavior by creating the rules the students are taking advantage of. I blame schools for tampering - I don't believe for a second that this isn't a rampant problem. Change the rules. Figure it out.

I disagree that people did not complain when coaches have run people out. That is very selective reading on your part. Just visit any thread about Manny Suarez if you want proof. As for people not complaining when other talents transferred, please visit threads about Eric Paschall.

The difference between these and the other transfers some people are labeling disloyal is that they are doing it with one year left when it appeared we were headed in the right direction.

There is nothing in the scholarship that says anything about it being until they graduate, something that only occurred b/c they school facilitated it anyway, so this notion of holding their end of the bargain is moot. Kids are given a benefit or cut a break and they bolt when it's easy to do so. It is millennial thinking to not recognize that.
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« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2017, 09:43:20 am »

Its the culture of mens basketball. Not just Fordham. Princeton has 2 players leaving, I mean you get accepted to Princeton for god sakes you should stay there. Penn State quickly has 3 on the list. UVA is not only one of the best schools in the country, it wins and has the almighty great facilitiesThey have annually had either the highest or close to the highest budgets in D1.

Many here want to chime in on nonsense like losing culture, facilties and yada yada. Wrong!

The answer is this is the millennial culture at its finest. A bunch of social media crazed, me generations kids who have zero accountability and feel entitled to break contracts, break the rules and do whatever they want.  Let me post on Instagram Im leaving, oh I dont actually have a release yet but Ill tell the world.

How does this transfer craze end? When some conference with some gonads starts to deny releases.

Why cant the above happen? Because college basketball talent is woefully diluted. 351 teams is too many so every school is fighting over the same players. Too many teams, too many scholarships, not enough talent to fill true D1 rosters. Hence, the musical chairs. 


You nailed it. Also the first reaction for many kids when you hold them accountable to a higher standard is to leave. If anyone thinks this is Fordham they are mistaken. This is college basketball in 2017
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« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2017, 09:50:24 am »

I think generalizations are a trap. I think you need to look at the situation of the Fordham players on a case by case basis (can't speak about programs at other universities).  

Severe never seemed to be 100% happy on Rose Hill, at least with the BBall situation. He could have worked on a Fordham graduate degree but he had the opportunity to go and play at a different program in a different league, have a different experience and possibly make the tourney.

AA graduated after red-shirting. He probably wants a BBall chance with a winning program.  I don't know what his academic goals are, but he gets to continue his education and play college ball.

Sengfelder, by accounts an excellent student, has the opportunity to get a graduate degree at a fine institution (Northwestern has been thrown around in the discussion) and expand his basketball horizons.  One thing that has been neglected in the "loyalty" discussions is that the European attitude towards universities is quite different from those in the US. Since there are no associated sports (along the American lines) there isn't the "rah rah" attitude when it comes to the association with university.  Something to keep in mind in CS's case.

Good luck to all these guys. They played by the rules and they all contributed to the program in their own way.

This is just the way it goes under the present system.  The programs (and the fans) should adjust accordingly.
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« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2017, 09:51:13 am »

You nailed it. Also the first reaction for many kids when you hold them accountable to a higher standard is to leave. If anyone thinks this is Fordham they are mistaken. This is college basketball in 2017

+1.  It is going to drive people away from the sport. I asked a friend the other day: are we done with this nonsense?   If it is at the point where you build up ready to make a jump but the players don't give a shyt up and leave why are we following this?  The point of Fordham basketball is you have an actual connection to the team which has a connection to the school.  If that is not there then one of the reasons to support the program is gone.
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« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2017, 09:58:29 am »

I think generalizations are a trap. I think you need to look at the situation of the Fordham players on a case by case basis (can't speak about programs at other universities).  

Severe never seemed to be 100% happy on Rose Hill, at least with the BBall situation. He could have worked on a Fordham graduate degree but he had the opportunity to go and play at a different program in a different league, have a different experience and possibly make the tourney.

AA graduated after red-shirting. He probably wants a BBall chance with a winning program.  I don't know what his academic goals are, but he gets to continue his education and play college ball.

Sengfelder, by accounts an excellent student, has the opportunity to get a graduate degree at a fine institution (Northwestern has been thrown around in the discussion) and expand his basketball horizons.  One thing that has been neglected in the "loyalty" discussions is that the European attitude towards universities is quite different from those in the US. Since there are no associated sports (along the American lines) there isn't the "rah rah" attitude when it comes to the association with university.  Something to keep in mind in CS's case.

Good luck to all these guys. They played by the rules and they all contributed to the program in their own way.

This is just the way it goes under the present system.  The programs (and the fans) should adjust accordingly.

I think there can be logical explanations for why people do things and it still be a disloyal move.

I will reserve further judgment on these moves until I see where they end up.
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« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2017, 10:11:56 am »

I disagree that people did not complain when coaches have run people out. That is very selective reading on your part. Just visit any thread about Manny Suarez if you want proof. As for people not complaining when other talents transferred, please visit threads about Eric Paschall.

The difference between these and the other transfers some people are labeling disloyal is that they are doing it with one year left when it appeared we were headed in the right direction.

There is nothing in the scholarship that says anything about it being until they graduate, something that only occurred b/c they school facilitated it anyway, so this notion of holding their end of the bargain is moot. Kids are given a benefit or cut a break and they bolt when it's easy to do so. It is millennial thinking to not recognize that.

Let me clear a few things up...

I disagree with EP type transfers. I understand why he did it, and I don't necessarily blame him, but he's not in the same conversation as these graduate type transfers. What I meant was that people didn't complain when lesser talents decided to transfer. I didn't see anyone call Hardnett "disloyal" last year. That's because most people didn't expect that he could help the team.

Seems to me that many of the people (not all) who are calling guys like AA and CS disloyal, don't seem to mind when players, Fordham Students, get run off or encouraged to transfer. I have a problem with that.

As far as your last point, I wasn't stating that there is some technical clause within a scholarship that it is good until they graduate. However, the general thought is that a student-athlete will play for 4 years, as an undergraduate.

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« Reply #16 on: March 31, 2017, 10:17:01 am »

I have the opposite opinion: I had no problem with Paschal leaving.  New coach he was a sophomore, wish he stayed but it did not bother me.  What bothers me is guys who used Fordham for a degree and get up and leave for their last year when Fordham was going to benefit from the time and money it invested.  This is especially true for Anderson. Fordham stood by that kid when he was a partial qualifyer.   That is disloyal, better to have just left when Neubauer was hired he could have recruited guys who wanted to be part of the program. 
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« Reply #17 on: March 31, 2017, 10:18:37 am »

Someone is whispering in their ear, likely a sports agent who will have dibs on them after college. Why transfer out of Princeton, UVA, or even Fordham? You are getting a world class education at these places.
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« Reply #18 on: March 31, 2017, 10:20:34 am »

3 of the top 4 MPG guys on the zags are transfers in, with the exception being the big Polish guy, Karnowski.  Maybe it's just how things are going to be moving forward for the non one-and-done schools, so maybe we just have to adapt and get better at recruiting transfers.  Hawkins was ok for us I guess but he was a JN guy anyway.

Selling NYC to a 20 yo who wants change seems like it could help us, too.
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« Reply #19 on: March 31, 2017, 10:22:10 am »

I have the opposite opinion: I had no problem with Paschal leaving.  New coach he was a sophomore, wish he stayed but it did not bother me.  What bothers me is guys who used Fordham for a degree and get up and leave for their last year when Fordham was going to benefit from the time and money it invested.  This is especially true for Anderson. Fordham stood by that kid when he was a partial qualifyer.   That is disloyal, better to have just left when Neubauer was hired he could have recruited guys who wanted to be part of the program. 

Agree completely.

I had no issue with Paschall wanting to move up.  And, despite it being a bit bullish, the kid made sure he got a release before opening his damn mouth to scoial media.

Have our current transfers out obtained the required releases ?   As pointed out by ACE, in that link, its still required.
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« Reply #20 on: March 31, 2017, 10:26:39 am »

I have the opposite opinion: I had no problem with Paschal leaving.  New coach he was a sophomore, wish he stayed but it did not bother me.  What bothers me is guys who used Fordham for a degree and get up and leave for their last year when Fordham was going to benefit from the time and money it invested.  This is especially true for Anderson. Fordham stood by that kid when he was a partial qualifyer.   That is disloyal, better to have just left when Neubauer was hired he could have recruited guys who wanted to be part of the program. 

My "spidey sense" will be on high alert if AA or CS end up at Iona. I'd have some serious questions about Cluess using Severe to feed them information about starting/playing for his team as graduate transfers. Cluess got away with some questionable recruiting at St. Mary's HS and I wouldn't be surprised if he's using the same tactics now.
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« Reply #21 on: March 31, 2017, 10:34:14 am »

My "spidey sense" will be on high alert if AA or CS end up at Iona. I'd have some serious questions about Cluess using Severe to feed them information about starting/playing for his team as graduate transfers. Cluess got away with some questionable recruiting at St. Mary's HS and I wouldn't be surprised if he's using the same tactics now.

I was thinking the same thing.  Not to go further down the rabbit hole, but Pecora still talks with a lot of his players, and even players that he recruited but didn't land.  I would not be surprised to hear he was involved in some of these moves (besides the obvious Paschall connection).
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« Reply #22 on: March 31, 2017, 10:53:58 am »

Spidey senses would be really tingling if any of our guys end up at Quinnipiac, as Pecora was just announced to come on as an assistant over there.

http://www.quchronicle.com/2017/03/quinnipiac-hires-baker-dunleavy-as-mens-basketball-coach-per-reports/

"...In the meantime, Quinnipiac has also added three assistants to its staff in Tom Pecora, Shaun Morris and Anthony Goins. Pecora is a former head coach at Fordham..."
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« Reply #23 on: March 31, 2017, 11:09:08 am »


Princeton has 2 players leaving, I mean you get accepted to Princeton for god sakes you should stay there. 


Brase and Caruso got injured as seniors.  The Ivy does not allow medical redshirts, so they have to leave in order to play.  But yes, many schools are losing guys and it may indicate nothing in particular about Fordham.

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« Reply #24 on: March 31, 2017, 11:14:00 am »

I have the opposite opinion: I had no problem with Paschal leaving.  New coach he was a sophomore, wish he stayed but it did not bother me.  What bothers me is guys who used Fordham for a degree and get up and leave for their last year when Fordham was going to benefit from the time and money it invested.  This is especially true for Anderson. Fordham stood by that kid when he was a partial qualifyer.   That is disloyal, better to have just left when Neubauer was hired he could have recruited guys who wanted to be part of the program. 

Same here. No issue with EP at all. How can you blame a kid for making that move. He is starting for a Top 5 program.

The others I have a problem with not necessarily bc they are grad transfers but bc we have been building toward next year for 2 years. They should be itching to get over the hump. Instead they will be mercenary for one year at a school where they have no connection. My thoughts would be different if we were a dumpster fire. For instance I would have had much less of a problem if Chris Gaston would have  done it in his final year.   
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« Reply #25 on: March 31, 2017, 11:15:16 am »

Brase and Caruso got injured as seniors.  The Ivy does not allow medical redshirts, so they have to leave in order to play.  But yes, many schools are losing guys and it may indicate nothing in particular about Fordham.

forget playing. stay at Princeton. play intramural ball. move on. who's advising these guys?
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« Reply #26 on: March 31, 2017, 11:18:34 am »

Let me clear a few things up...

I disagree with EP type transfers. I understand why he did it, and I don't necessarily blame him, but he's not in the same conversation as these graduate type transfers. What I meant was that people didn't complain when lesser talents decided to transfer. I didn't see anyone call Hardnett "disloyal" last year. That's because most people didn't expect that he could help the team.

Seems to me that many of the people (not all) who are calling guys like AA and CS disloyal, don't seem to mind when players, Fordham Students, get run off or encouraged to transfer. I have a problem with that.

As far as your last point, I wasn't stating that there is some technical clause within a scholarship that it is good until they graduate. However, the general thought is that a student-athlete will play for 4 years, as an undergraduate.

I have a problem when kids get run off also. Like Rich, I have no issue with Paschall type transfers. He came in, spent a season here, felt it was not the place for him and moved on. Don't get me wrong, I wanted him to stay, I don't root for him b/c I have no reason to, but I also don't dwell on him.

My "spidey sense" will be on high alert if AA or CS end up at Iona. I'd have some serious questions about Cluess using Severe to feed them information about starting/playing for his team as graduate transfers. Cluess got away with some questionable recruiting at St. Mary's HS and I wouldn't be surprised if he's using the same tactics now.

That is why I said above or in another thread (can't remember) that I will reserve judgment on these situations until we find out where they are going.
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« Reply #27 on: March 31, 2017, 11:21:52 am »

Same here. No issue with EP at all. How can you blame a kid for making that move. He is starting for a Top 5 program.

The others I have a problem with not necessarily bc they are grad transfers but bc we have been building toward next year for 2 years. They should be itching to get over the hump. Instead they will be mercenary for one year at a school where they have no connection. My thoughts would be different if we were a dumpster fire. For instance I would have had much less of a problem if Chris Gaston would have  done it in his final year.   

Exactly. 

As far where these young adults (they are not kids anymore they graduated college) go a lot people are watching and waiting.  These guys can talk to Pecora all they want and if they listen to a guy who lost 20 games a year every year he coached here and is now an assistant at Quin then they are just looking for an excuse.
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« Reply #28 on: March 31, 2017, 11:23:42 am »

Again, ACE posted a link that you still need a release. Did AA or CS get one ?  Usually that is a little transactions blurb.

In my opinion its crazy for a kid to be living at Fordham, for free, during a time when they can still be required to practice, and making public comments about leaving. Send them a bill.

There are no rules anymore. Players and coaches do whatever they want, then expect people to respect them.   
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« Reply #29 on: March 31, 2017, 11:26:02 am »

Again, ACE posted a link that you still need a release. Did AA or CS get one ?  Usually that is a little transactions blurb.

Not sure they would announce this through goodman if they did not have their release but it is a good question.

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