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Patriot league is now the worst fcs conf in the country


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« Reply #30 on: October 02, 2017, 09:49:16 am »

At the very least, the Patriot League needs to drop the AI, add the missing last three scholarships, and drop the no red shirt rule. I have been saying this for four years and now the results are proving out, as the Patriot League has dropped to a second tier FCS league.
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« Reply #31 on: October 02, 2017, 10:16:37 am »

At the very least, the Patriot League needs to drop the AI, add the missing last three scholarships, and drop the no red shirt rule. I have been saying this for four years and now the results are proving out, as the Patriot League has dropped to a second tier FCS league.

Agreed. Hard to compete with the best consistently when we're at a disadvantage as far as roster construction.

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« Reply #32 on: October 02, 2017, 10:26:03 am »

I hear what you guys are saying, but at the same time we are losing to the Ivy League (stricter academic rules; won't call them no-scholarship b/c that's not entirely accurate) and the NEC (less # of scholarships).
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« Reply #33 on: October 02, 2017, 12:45:18 pm »

The PL is 1-7 this year so far against the Ivies.  No extra scholarships, AI or redshirting to explain it away.  Colgate is the only PL team to win so far.

Some interesting scores...

Harvard 41 - G'town 2.  (at RFK Stadium)

Columbia 35 - G'town 14

Yale putting up 56 on Lehigh and 41 on Fordham.

Penn 65 - Lehigh 47

I'd hate to see if we were playing CAA teams regularly.   
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« Reply #34 on: October 02, 2017, 02:22:13 pm »

I hear what you guys are saying, but at the same time we are losing to the Ivy League (stricter academic rules; won't call them no-scholarship b/c that's not entirely accurate) and the NEC (less # of scholarships).

As a high school teammate of mine who played football for Harvard and is close to their program says, the Ivy League will always do what it needs to do to be competitive in the FCS. According to him, the Ivies know exactly how to get quality players under the radar and without scholarships, they always have and always will. When you have the $ the Ivies have, there is much you can do with financial aid, etc. So comparing the PL with the Ivies is apples to oranges.
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« Reply #35 on: October 02, 2017, 11:41:34 pm »

As a high school teammate of mine who played football for Harvard and is close to their program says, the Ivy League will always do what it needs to do to be competitive in the FCS. According to him, the Ivies know exactly how to get quality players under the radar and without scholarships, they always have and always will. When you have the $ the Ivies have, there is much you can do with financial aid, etc. So comparing the PL with the Ivies is apples to oranges.

The myth of the "non-scholarship" Ivy League is long gone, if it ever existed.  Everyone knows that. With one or two exceptions it is not a good level of play.   The presidents live with football because they have to but they continue to do everything possible to diminish it.  There was a proposal to ban kick-offs that was seriously considered. The Dartmouth coach was doing commercials last year explaining how his team tackles robot dummies instead of live players in practice. Rosters are limited as is recruiting. Their out of conference play is limited to the PL, NEC and Pioneer League.  Hopefully, it is just bad timing that The Ivy League is ripping up PL opponents so far this year.  It is not a good sign for the league and it has nothing to do with the IA or redshirt policies. 
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« Reply #36 on: October 03, 2017, 12:54:44 am »

I wonder if Columbia is having regrets now that they cancelled the Liberty Cup series?
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« Reply #37 on: October 03, 2017, 07:17:24 am »

Delaware, which fired their coach during the season last year and was picked to finish at the bottom of the CAA beat up on Cornell last week.  The Ivy League is not even a middle of the pack FCS conference.
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« Reply #38 on: October 03, 2017, 09:29:30 am »

The myth of the "non-scholarship" Ivy League is long gone, if it ever existed.  Everyone knows that. With one or two exceptions it is not a good level of play.   The presidents live with football because they have to but they continue to do everything possible to diminish it.  There was a proposal to ban kick-offs that was seriously considered. The Dartmouth coach was doing commercials last year explaining how his team tackles robot dummies instead of live players in practice. Rosters are limited as is recruiting. Their out of conference play is limited to the PL, NEC and Pioneer League.  Hopefully, it is just bad timing that The Ivy League is ripping up PL opponents so far this year.  It is not a good sign for the league and it has nothing to do with the IA or redshirt policies. 

Agree with most of this, just a couple of comments though.

The tackling dummy thing has actually been growing. This article (one of many) mentions that the Steelers, Ravens and Cowboys incorporate them, as do ND and West Virginia. I would guess there are more instances than that.  https://www.digitaltrends.com/outdoors/mobile-virtual-players-small-football-teams/

As to a good level of play, that depends on how you look at it. Do you measure against all other college ball, your league level, your league, your expectations, or what?  Is everyone beneath Alabama and Clemson not a good level of play? North Dakota State? I realize you mean competing for the FCS championship, but that is not what the Ivies want to do. What I am saying is that the quality of play is relative to the goals. For Fordham, I would be quite happy with the PL championship, however achieved. I am aware that falls below the aspirations of others here. To expect much more, it would seem, is to guarantee disappointment. What is going on currently in the Bronx, however, is unacceptable.
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« Reply #39 on: October 03, 2017, 10:01:34 am »

Agree with most of this, just a couple of comments though.

The tackling dummy thing has actually been growing. This article (one of many) mentions that the Steelers, Ravens and Cowboys incorporate them, as do ND and West Virginia. I would guess there are more instances than that.  https://www.digitaltrends.com/outdoors/mobile-virtual-players-small-football-teams/

As to a good level of play, that depends on how you look at it. Do you measure against all other college ball, your league level, your league, your expectations, or what?  Is everyone beneath Alabama and Clemson not a good level of play? North Dakota State? I realize you mean competing for the FCS championship, but that is not what the Ivies want to do. What I am saying is that the quality of play is relative to the goals. For Fordham, I would be quite happy with the PL championship, however achieved. I am aware that falls below the aspirations of others here. To expect much more, it would seem, is to guarantee disappointment. What is going on currently in the Bronx, however, is unacceptable.


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« Reply #40 on: October 03, 2017, 12:08:01 pm »

Agree with most of this, just a couple of comments though.

The tackling dummy thing has actually been growing. This article (one of many) mentions that the Steelers, Ravens and Cowboys incorporate them, as do ND and West Virginia. I would guess there are more instances than that.  https://www.digitaltrends.com/outdoors/mobile-virtual-players-small-football-teams/

As to a good level of play, that depends on how you look at it. Do you measure against all other college ball, your league level, your league, your expectations, or what?  Is everyone beneath Alabama and Clemson not a good level of play? North Dakota State? I realize you mean competing for the FCS championship, but that is not what the Ivies want to do. What I am saying is that the quality of play is relative to the goals. For Fordham, I would be quite happy with the PL championship, however achieved. I am aware that falls below the aspirations of others here. To expect much more, it would seem, is to guarantee disappointment. What is going on currently in the Bronx, however, is unacceptable.


Understood on all points...

I've seen the tacking dummy demonstrated.  I'm not buying it.  It can't react the way a human can.  I understand they want to lessen the amount of contact, but at what cost?  Quality of play is one thing.  I'd submit that not knowing how to properly block, tackle and run through collisions is causing just as many injuries. I've heard that from a number of medical people. My long serving ortho guy for one!

I'm not measuring anything with the big-time.  I totally get that.  Just give me decent, well coached, competitive football.  The Ivy League is only competitive within itself and the really low rungs of FCS.  That's fine for them, but I don't try to sell me it is even middle of the road FCS football.  Some of these teams can't get out of their own way.

Harvard and Yale are generally good and Penn had a historic run a few years ago.  They were above average Ivy programs.  They've knocked off a bigger fish on occassion.  Put them in a decent conference for 3-4 games and they wouldn't hold up.
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« Reply #41 on: October 04, 2017, 11:12:54 am »

Ivy league football is better than it is often referred to here (looking at you AOC). While I agree that many or all of the Ivies aren't as strong as the highest of FCS programs currently, your ND States, Eastern Washingtons, James Madisons etc, they are far from the bottom of the FCS.

Yale has gone OOC recently and beaten Cal Poly and Army, Dartmouth beat UNH last year are two examples just off the top of my head.

Statistics be damned maybe, but according to the Massey ratings right now, of the 13 FCS leagues the Ivy League is ranked 5th. The Patriot League is ranked 11th.
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« Reply #42 on: October 04, 2017, 11:47:03 am »

Ivy league football is better than it is often referred to here (looking at you AOC). While I agree that many or all of the Ivies aren't as strong as the highest of FCS programs currently, your ND States, Eastern Washingtons, James Madisons etc, they are far from the bottom of the FCS.

Yale has gone OOC recently and beaten Cal Poly and Army, Dartmouth beat UNH last year are two examples just off the top of my head.

Statistics be damned maybe, but according to the Massey ratings right now, of the 13 FCS leagues the Ivy League is ranked 5th. The Patriot League is ranked 11th.

I acknowledged that a couple of the Ivies have decent teams occasionally and they do knock off a good team from a high rated conference now and then. That said, any Ivy League team that played a CAA type schedule would be lucky to be .500 on its best year.  Fordham beat Army. Not a great example. Army was horrendous.  The Ivy League is not a good level of football. 
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« Reply #43 on: October 04, 2017, 12:14:09 pm »

Not looking for a beef, just defending our Ivy friends here (why, I have no idea  Smiley ).

Is the Ivy League a "good level of football" compared to the CAA, Southern Con. or MVFC? Probably in total....no(but it's not light years away either). Is it as good, top to bottom as just about any other FCS conference? I'd argue that it is.

I think Fordham fans may be somewhat slanted into thinking that "all Ivy football stinks because Columbia used to be awful and dropped the Liberty Cup series"....just my $0.02 

Harvard (who has been chicken*** in not playing anyone of quality OOC agreed), Yale, Dartmouth, Penn and Princeton all put out pretty quality programs most years. Brown has been decent at times...Columbia is getting better (beat Princeton last week)...Cornell has been generally poor in the 21st C admittedly.

Just in general, Ivy football is not as poor as it is often portrayed here and elsewhere. As a league actually, it's as well represented with active players in the NFL as just about any other FCS conference.
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« Reply #44 on: October 04, 2017, 12:18:55 pm »

If the 5th ranked conference is not a good level of football what does that make the 11th ranked conference?
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« Reply #45 on: October 04, 2017, 01:35:23 pm »

If the 5th ranked conference is not a good level of football what does that make the 11th ranked conference?

+1.
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« Reply #46 on: October 04, 2017, 01:46:26 pm »

I acknowledged that a couple of the Ivies have decent teams occasionally and they do knock off a good team from a high rated conference now and then. That said, any Ivy League team that played a CAA type schedule would be lucky to be .500 on its best year.  Fordham beat Army. Not a great example. Army was horrendous.  The Ivy League is not a good level of football.

The only Ivy team that I follow closely is Yale, and I have to say they look pretty good so far this year. I have posted in the past that I hoped they would be a regular on our schedule in place of Columbia, and it looks like that may come to pass. They are an Ivy that is not afraid to play Patriot League teams--all of their OOC games this year are against Patriot teams.
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« Reply #47 on: October 04, 2017, 06:19:38 pm »

I guess the Patriot League should add one or two more clubs to avoid what is looking more and more like chronic OOC and FBS beatdowns.

Maybe you do add a Carnegie Mellon, Johns Hopkins, or Williams type of program. At least the current PL teams will feel good about winning again and they can stop carrying about their AI.

Lady fingers would love these match ups.

You realize those are all D-III teams...
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« Reply #48 on: October 04, 2017, 06:29:43 pm »

If the 5th ranked conference is not a good level of football what does that make the 11th ranked conference?

Computer generated rankings.  That's really getting down in the weeds and looking.

Let's take a look at who some of the Ivy's are playing this year...

Harvard...  URI (lost), Lafayette, G'town.

Yale...  Lehigh, Fordham, Holy Cross

Dartmouth...  Stetson, Sacred Heart, Holy Cross

Penn...  Ohio Dominican, Lehigh, CCSU

Boolah, Boolah...  Let's go to the big game, Muffy!
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« Reply #49 on: October 04, 2017, 07:05:46 pm »

Computer generated rankings.  That's really getting down in the weeds and looking.

Let's take a look at who some of the Ivy's are playing this year...

Harvard...  URI (lost), Lafayette, G'town.

Yale...  Lehigh, Fordham, Holy Cross

Dartmouth...  Stetson, Sacred Heart, Holy Cross

Penn...  Ohio Dominican, Lehigh, CCSU

Boolah, Boolah...  Let's go to the big game, Muffy!

Fordham played 1 Ivy League team and got its clocked cleaned. Yale smoked Lehigh.  Dartmouth beat Holy Cross.  You forgot Princeton they smoked lafayette. Colgate the best PL team barely beat Cornell. Columbia beats Georgetown.  That is 5-1 in favor of the low level league. Note I missed your list above they are 7-1. 

Again I ask if the Ivy League is as you say not a good level of football and the Ivy League beat several patriot league teams what does that make the Patriot League?  Everyone here was quick to talk about the Massy rankings when we were ranked but now they don't matter.  Ok but explain how the head to head match ups reflect on the PL with the understanding that the season is not over.   

In fairness at least Muffy and Tad went to Ivy League schools as opposed to pretending their school was in the Ivy League. 
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« Reply #50 on: October 04, 2017, 07:24:30 pm »

The Ivy League is a solid level of football. Is it at the faux-FBS level that schools like North Dakota St, Sam Houston St, James Madison and a few others are at? No...but it really probably shouldn't be either, we are playing at the FCS-level for a reason...which is to play D1 football without a lot of the seediness that can be inherent in some of those types of programs.

This is not to say we should all just give it the "old college try" and damn the wins and losses...but to play within the confines of being student-athletes first and foremost and be the best teams/programs we can be at our level. There definitely could be improvements for PL football: give the 63 schollies instead of 60, find a way to make red-shirting a little easier, a better AI system etc etc....but in general, the PL has the "big picture" in perspective which can be frustrating I know.

I agree that the Ivies have really "dumbed down" their OOC slates lately in general...which is too bad because I think a fair amount of them could play CAA schools, service academies etc competitively.
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« Reply #51 on: October 04, 2017, 07:24:44 pm »

Fordham played 1 Ivy League team and got its clocked cleaned. Yale smoked Lehigh.  Dartmouth beat Holy Cross.  You forgot Princeton they smoked lafayette. Colgate the best PL team barely beat Cornell. Columbia beats Georgetown.  That is 5-1 in favor of the low level league.

Again I ask if the Ivy League is as you say not a good level of football and the Ivy League beat several patriot league teams what does that make the Patriot League?  Everyone here was quick to talk about the Massy rankings when we were ranked but now they don't matter.  Ok but explain how the head to head match ups reflect on the PL with the understanding that the season is not over.   

In fairness at least Muffy and Tad went to Ivy League schools as opposed to pretending their school was in the Ivy League. 

I wouldn't say playing PL teams is going to vault any program into the Top 10. The PL is on the bottom of the pile as well.  The scholarship move has been terribly disappointing.

I haven't looked at Brown and Cornell. I'm afraid I might see Radcliffe and Barnard on their schedule. Do Smith and Mount Holyoke have teams?
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« Reply #52 on: October 04, 2017, 07:34:45 pm »

The Ivy League is a solid level of football. Is it at the faux-FBS level that schools like North Dakota St, Sam Houston St, James Madison and a few others are at? No...but it really probably shouldn't be either, we are playing at the FCS-level for a reason...which is to play D1 football without a lot of the seediness that can be inherent in some of those types of programs.

This is not to say we should all just give it the "old college try" and damn the wins and losses...but to play within the confines of being student-athletes first and foremost and be the best teams/programs we can be at our level. There definitely could be improvements for PL football: give the 63 schollies instead of 60, find a way to make red-shirting a little easier, a better AI system etc etc....but in general, the PL has the "big picture" in perspective which can be frustrating I know.

I agree that the Ivies have really "dumbed down" their OOC slates lately in general...which is too bad because I think a fair amount of them could play CAA schools, service academies etc competitively.

Do you really think three scholarships for guys guarding the water cooler are going to help Lafayette beat any decent CAA team?   The AI and red shirting are on the books because the PL isn't going to go all in on football.  I agree that's fine. The purpose of the Conference isn't about winning championships.

I agree that a couple of Ivy teams can knock off a bigger program on a given Saturday.  There is no way they could be competitive in a CAA level conference on a weekly basis.
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« Reply #53 on: October 04, 2017, 07:42:12 pm »

Helps with more depth etc....agree, it wouldn't be a game changer.

There have been Ivy teams in the last decade who definitely would have been at the top of the CAA, maybe not winning it but right there imo.

The CAA, while a very good league is not exactly the SEC either.....we've already beaten UNH handily this year (a one-game fluke perhaps) but when HC was last very strong, it regularly beat CAA schools, often handily.

I'm off...bar trivia...later Rams fans.
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« Reply #54 on: October 04, 2017, 07:42:26 pm »

Fordham played 1 Ivy League team and got its clocked cleaned. Yale smoked Lehigh.  Dartmouth beat Holy Cross.  You forgot Princeton they smoked lafayette. Colgate the best PL team barely beat Cornell. Columbia beats Georgetown.  That is 5-1 in favor of the low level league. Note I missed your list above they are 7-1. 

Again I ask if the Ivy League is as you say not a good level of football and the Ivy League beat several patriot league teams what does that make the Patriot League?  Everyone here was quick to talk about the Massy rankings when we were ranked but now they don't matter.  Ok but explain how the head to head match ups reflect on the PL with the understanding that the season is not over.   

In fairness at least Muffy and Tad went to Ivy League schools as opposed to pretending their school was in the Ivy League. 

"Post of the Year" candidate.
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« Reply #55 on: October 04, 2017, 07:46:37 pm »

Helps with more depth etc....agree, it wouldn't be a game changer.

There have been Ivy teams in the last decade who definitely would have been at the top of the CAA, maybe not winning it but right there imo.

The CAA, while a very good league is not exactly the SEC either.....we've already beaten UNH handily this year (a one-game fluke perhaps) but when HC was last very strong, it regularly beat CAA schools, often handily.

I'm off...bar trivia...later Rams fans.


The AI is important, the three added scholarships add badly needed depth, but the red shirt rule is a game changer for the Patriot League. See Delaware in their prime plus many other top FCS programs. With our current facilities, we need every advantage we can get.

End of story.
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« Reply #56 on: October 04, 2017, 08:04:09 pm »

https://herosports.com/fcs/ivy-league-football-well-represented-2017-nfl-rosters-byby

Highest paid fullback in NFL history from Harvard as well as All PRo center, five on active rosters now. Ivy

League and Patriot superiority swings back and forth. This year pretty obvious who is dominant. Watched Ivy

league football for close to thirty years. Seen plenty of great players. For the most part neither of the leagues

can play with the big boys in 1AA. Not even close. But I don't believe that is the goal of either. They

are more concerned with a good product and strong academics. In the end ,that's what really matters. I have

seen post game interviews of Ivy and Patriot League players from Marcellus Wiley to Chase, it makes me

proud to be associated with both leagues. I can assure you that there have been many excellent Ivy teams

including other schools besides Harvard throughout the years.
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« Reply #57 on: October 04, 2017, 08:22:45 pm »

The PL has these rules for a reason.  The conference made a conscious decision to handicap its members. They don't want to get into a situation where schools are going to go go off the charts with budgets to compete for championships. The Ivy League is less discreet. They just don't allow playoffs.  The PL doesn't even require all of its teams to play under the same rules. Again, there is a reason.  Participation is more important than an FCS championship.
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« Reply #58 on: October 05, 2017, 12:18:12 am »

Not to belabor the point, but I will. What it comes down to basically is what one expects out of one's football program. As a Holy Cross fan of a certain age, the whole season at one point came down to the season ending game against BC. We could be 1-9 going into the BC game, as we were in 1977 but beating BC that year made the season. Winning the PL today and then playing UT-Chattanooga or Northern Iowa just doesn't hold the same appeal. (Again, my opinion)

I think Holy Cross (and Fordham and other PL schools) are better served in football playing the Ivies, CAA schools, the random Eastern Washington as you guys did this year, as well as some of the regional FBS schools (Army, Navy, BC, Syracuse etc) during the regular season and then calling it a day/season.

Is there really a need to be playing Sam Houston State on December 13th in the FCS quarter-finals? I'd argue no.

Maybe you guys feel differently....that's fine....I just don't really see the point.
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« Reply #59 on: October 05, 2017, 12:37:32 am »

Not to belabor the point, but I will. What it comes down to basically is what one expects out of one's football program. As a Holy Cross fan of a certain age, the whole season at one point came down to the season ending game against BC. We could be 1-9 going into the BC game, as we were in 1977 but beating BC that year made the season. Winning the PL today and then playing UT-Chattanooga or Northern Iowa just doesn't hold the same appeal. (Again, my opinion)

I think Holy Cross (and Fordham and other PL schools) are better served in football playing the Ivies, CAA schools, the random Eastern Washington as you guys did this year, as well as some of the regional FBS schools (Army, Navy, BC, Syracuse etc) during the regular season and then calling it a day/season.

Is there really a need to be playing Sam Houston State on December 13th in the FCS quarter-finals? I'd argue no.

Maybe you guys feel differently....that's fine....I just don't really see the point.

I basically agree. I think the PL is a great place for Fordham to be.  No issue with 3 less scholarships, the AI or red shirting.
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