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The real person on hot seat should be the AD


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Question: Should Dave Roach be fired over the football hire?
Yes - 8 (21.1%)
No - 14 (36.8%)
Maybe - 7 (18.4%)
No-outside forces were responsible for this hire - 9 (23.7%)
Total Voters: 38

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Author Topic: The real person on hot seat should be the AD  (Read 855 times)
ace93
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« Reply #30 on: October 01, 2017, 12:02:24 pm »

And one bad decision can cost the AD or anyone else his/her job.   

Of course the money is down the drain. its a quid pro quo, you spend all that money to have success. You dont spend all that money and then just ignore due diligence and hire a green kid with little experience to take over a top 25 program. That's enough to get you fired. One really colossally bad decision is enough. My issue is that he should be fired for not doing his job. If he did a search and he made AB a candidate and decided after the search that he was the best guy, then it's a little different.  Breiner had zero leverage, none.  We finally had ourselves positioned where we needed to be. A terrific stepping stone HC job to constantly attract great candidates, let the move up, then rinse repeat. We blew it and are now set back.

And this one should not. It was a calculated risk. Don't be so sure that Roach had the freedom to use a search firm again. That was costly and did not go over well for that reason when we hired Neubauer.

Had we hired from the outside, and were still losing like we are now, people would be saying he blew it b/c we had continuity and pissed it away by going outside the program that was winning so much. I do not think Breiner was left that good a situation. Where are all the juniors and seniors on defense that Moorhead left behind? What's up with the the offensive line?
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Nothing replaces success in the revenue sports.  Nothing.  That's not to take away from the success in the Olympic sports - they do matter.  It isn't a replacement for success in the flagship sports. - Debbie Yow, AD - NC State
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« Reply #31 on: October 01, 2017, 12:07:47 pm »

Big budget, top 25 program, several prior coaches at the next level of football. This was a gem of a job that required a vetting process. It likely didnt need a search firm because of the aforementioned plum nature of the job at the time. You must do your job. The AD didnt do his job. Period. It's Fordham, you don't take the chance on the youngest coach in the country at Fordham. 
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« Reply #32 on: October 01, 2017, 12:31:22 pm »

I'm as disappointed as anyone with our play so far this season. That said, I'm not ready to can Dave Roach over the hiring of Coach Breiner. For one reason, because I'm not sure how much freedom he had in making the decision. I wasn't privy to the discussions he surely had with Jeff Gray. And 85, I'm somewhat surprised at you posting that he ought to be fired. As you have pointed out many times in many threads, when you look at all of our varsity sports, we are doing very well overall since he has been here. Yes this is a major bump in the road, and some tough decisions regarding the program will have to be made at season's end, but I'm willing to give Roach a chance to redeem himself on this hiring. One chance.
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Fordham: The oldest and winningest NCAA Division I baseball program.
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« Reply #33 on: October 01, 2017, 12:39:33 pm »

I'm as disappointed as anyone with our play so far this season. That said, I'm not ready to can Dave Roach over the hiring of Coach Breiner. For one reason, because I'm not sure how much freedom he had in making the decision. I wasn't privy to the discussions he surely had with Jeff Gray. And 85, I'm somewhat surprised at you posting that he ought to be fired. As you have pointed out many times in many threads, when you look at all of our varsity sports, we are doing very well overall since he has been here. Yes this is a major bump in the road, and some tough decisions regarding the program will have to be made at season's end, but I'm willing to give Roach a chance to redeem himself on this hiring. One chance.

I actually said 50-50 but I can certainly understand if he was to be fired over it and it should be a consideration. We have all been around this place for a long time. We have seen how mailing it in and doing it the lazy way always comes back to bite us in the ass. There is enough history there to rely upon for that analysis. I gave Roach credit for actually doing due diligence and doing things by the book. It worked.

Football was at its apex. A premium job, for which coaches would be calling in droves. You get the best guy. That means you do your job, and it would have been likely a very pleasant vetting process given the success of the program and the budgets. Mailing it in should never be an option. This was handled in Frank fashion. There was no reason to abandoned the process here, none whatsoever.  Do you really think that if we put the job out there for a month and Breiner handed the interim tag, that Breiner would have left?  And if he did, we wouldnt have gotten a really good head coach?

Errors of omission versus errors of commission.
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« Reply #34 on: October 01, 2017, 12:46:26 pm »

85, as appealing as I think the Fordham job is, I think you're over selling the appeal - our history, the compensation, etc. - it has to the outside world.  Also, when discussing men's hoops you regularly post on the recent success of Fordham's athletic programs, and your approval the job Roach has done in the time he's been here.  But now, you think he should be on the hot seat for hiring Breiner.  I'm not saying I'm not concerned about football.  In fact, I'm pissed.  But this grade is incomplete at best.
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« Reply #35 on: October 01, 2017, 12:53:49 pm »

85, as appealing as I think the Fordham job is, I think you're over selling the appeal - our history, the compensation, etc. - it has to the outside world.  Also, when discussing men's hoops you regularly post on the recent success of Fordham's athletic programs, and your approval the job Roach has done in the time he's been here.  But now, you think he should be on the hot seat for hiring Breiner.  I'm not saying I'm not concerned about football.  In fact, I'm pissed.  But this grade is incomplete at best.

Understood, and that is exactly why nobody would ever think Fordham is the right place to take a chance on hiring the youngest coach in the country.

Trust me, I'm  not reveling in this and have no issue with Breiner. I want him to succeed. He was a young guy who took a promotion. Anyone would have taken it. But to be a seasoned AD, with 40 years or so experience, and knowing full well the unique obstacles at Fordham and then not have a process. That is inexcusable. To boot, you had no process and also hired the youngest guy in country.   That should put your job in jeopardy.   
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« Reply #36 on: October 01, 2017, 12:56:07 pm »

Come on now with that. We will have top candidates lined up around the block. Its a head coaching job that pays very good money at a very good school. Our former coaches going back nearly  20 years have all landed at 1A schools in some capacity. Its a great stepping stone. Every time we lose in anything, this silly argument is raised, its been dis-proven over and over again. This was a one-off,  hair brained decision that should cost the AD his job. Fire AB, national search, you get a real good coach. Absolutely.

I will temper my pessimism for now and let's see what we get. I have my doubts obviously.

It's just that this thing has go sideways so quickly; it's disheartening.
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« Reply #37 on: October 01, 2017, 01:02:12 pm »

Sideways is an understatement.
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« Reply #38 on: October 01, 2017, 01:09:29 pm »

Sideways is an understatement.

This is a meteor falling to Earth.  The question is does this meteor hit in the desert, ocean or a populated area.  What kind of collateral damage does this create?  Is this a one year, 2 year, 5 year or 10 year fix for a program that was running smoothly?
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« Reply #39 on: October 02, 2017, 10:15:09 am »

ADs don't get fired for 1 bad hire - assuming the coach was later fired for performance and nothing else.
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« Reply #40 on: October 02, 2017, 10:21:44 am »

ADs don't get fired for 1 bad hire - assuming the coach was later fired for performance and nothing else.

You are way over-simplifying this issue. 

A bad hire can happen. But that's not the salient issue here. This was zero process, zero work effort, zero due diligence. No search, no investigation, no nothing. That's entirely different than one coach not working out. It's Fordham for god sakes. How many times must we be bitten in the ass for lazy hires? No way, no how you just decide without any investigation or search to hand over the keys to the youngest coach in the country. Preposterous dereliction of duty.

This is not as simple as a one bad hire situation.
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« Reply #41 on: October 02, 2017, 10:23:58 am »

Preposterous dereliction of duty.

I don't disagree with you on that point. Even if we ultimately decided to hire AB, there should've been a search.

But Fordham disagrees with you. That's why we've been hit with so many lazy hires.
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« Reply #42 on: October 02, 2017, 10:32:35 am »

There was absolutely no reason to just toss this kid the keys. what leverage did he have? None. Tag him as interim, do a national search, it was a hot job. If after a few weeks you decide he is the best guy after a full vetting process, then you pull the trigger. But its Fordham.  You simply have to do the work and go through the process and vet, vet, vet.  All the unique issues at Fordham, the facilities, academics, the admin. You really think this is the right place for the youngest coach in the country?  Hey, Breiner may turn out to be a fantastic head coach some day. I mean, Belechick got fired by Cleveland! But this job, with a kid coach, doesnt make sense and never should have happened in the first place.
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« Reply #43 on: October 02, 2017, 10:57:16 am »

This is a meteor falling to Earth.  The question is does this meteor hit in the desert, ocean or a populated area.  What kind of collateral damage does this create?  Is this a one year, 2 year, 5 year or 10 year fix for a program that was running smoothly?

You really are a drama queen.  Do you even root for Fordham, or  is it just your spouse?  You only log on to complain about something.
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« Reply #44 on: October 02, 2017, 11:06:22 am »

There was absolutely no reason to just toss this kid the keys. what leverage did he have? None. Tag him as interim, do a national search, it was a hot job. If after a few weeks you decide he is the best guy after a full vetting process, then you pull the trigger. But its Fordham.  You simply have to do the work and go through the process and vet, vet, vet.  All the unique issues at Fordham, the facilities, academics, the admin. You really think this is the right place for the youngest coach in the country?  Hey, Breiner may turn out to be a fantastic head coach some day. I mean, Belechick got fired by Cleveland! But this job, with a kid coach, doesnt make sense and never should have happened in the first place.

The flip side to that is you're hiring someone that's been here, won here and knows the challenges etc.

Personally, I would've liked to do a full search for the other reasons you mentioned. With JM's step up, we likely were viewed as a good launching point.

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« Reply #45 on: October 02, 2017, 11:12:20 am »

You really are a drama queen.  Do you even root for Fordham, or  is it just your spouse?  You only log on to complain about something.

Perhaps he roots for Fordham to fail, so he and his spouse have something to complain about?
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« Reply #46 on: October 02, 2017, 11:16:02 am »

We all sort of scratched out head at this hire at the time. It just goes to show you, there are no shortcuts in this business. Go through the process, vet a bunch of candidates and let a committee chime in along with the AD.  You just cant let this happen.  Even for your own self preservation.  But in reality, the President and Gray should have made them go through the process, given the age of the coach and the profile of the job at the time.
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« Reply #47 on: October 02, 2017, 11:32:06 am »

There was absolutely no reason to just toss this kid the keys. what leverage did he have? None. Tag him as interim, do a national search, it was a hot job. If after a few weeks you decide he is the best guy after a full vetting process, then you pull the trigger. But its Fordham.  You simply have to do the work and go through the process and vet, vet, vet.  All the unique issues at Fordham, the facilities, academics, the admin. You really think this is the right place for the youngest coach in the country?  Hey, Breiner may turn out to be a fantastic head coach some day. I mean, Belechick got fired by Cleveland! But this job, with a kid coach, doesnt make sense and never should have happened in the first place.

   85, you are spot on, as usual.  
  
   Whatever its origins, we do not have a culture of professionalism in our athletic department.  Whether one is big time or small time, certain approaches are required, a certain level of pride is necessary, and results matter.  
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« Reply #48 on: October 02, 2017, 11:39:00 am »

There was absolutely no reason to just toss this kid the keys. what leverage did he have? None. Tag him as interim, do a national search, it was a hot job. If after a few weeks you decide he is the best guy after a full vetting process, then you pull the trigger. But its Fordham.  You simply have to do the work and go through the process and vet, vet, vet.  All the unique issues at Fordham, the facilities, academics, the admin. You really think this is the right place for the youngest coach in the country?  Hey, Breiner may turn out to be a fantastic head coach some day. I mean, Belechick got fired by Cleveland! But this job, with a kid coach, doesnt make sense and never should have happened in the first place.

I think you're spot on this.  That being said, at the time I put a lot of faith in the reports that JM had given a hearty endorsement of the AB hire.  We also had a high powered offense that he had successfully coordinated, so maintaining some continuity (especially with KA and Chase coming back) made some sense to me in my layperson's opinion.  However, I think you're absolutely right 85 - and hopefully this can be a lesson moving forward.  It should be standard operating procedure that we have a full blown national search for our full-time,  head coaching jobs.  That's what Roach did with men's hoops which resulted in the hiring of Neubauer - and that yielded a positive result but most accounts.  
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« Reply #49 on: October 02, 2017, 11:47:31 am »

Perhaps he roots for Fordham to fail, so he and his spouse have something to complain about?

You and Ram 83 miss the point.  I want success.  I smelled this train wreck the last 5 games of last season.  Complacency is contagious.
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« Reply #50 on: October 02, 2017, 11:57:27 am »

Fool me twice, shame on me.  I'll be stunned if we ever promote another assistant again, that's for sure.

That said, this is a very good FCS job.  Not the best but certainly good enough to attract many outstanding candidates.  There simply are not that many full scholarship DI head coaching spots available.  A big budget, full scholarships to a very good academic institution and a track record that shows good coaches can win here and use it as a launch pad somewhere else.  Facilities and other shortcomings notwithstanding there will be lines out the door if/when the job comes open next.
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« Reply #51 on: October 02, 2017, 12:11:54 pm »

I think this is an important point.  Football more than any other sport is one where staffing is paramount.

On reflection, I think this was mostly about trying to save money and to avoid the inevitable facilities question (prospective coaching candidate: "show me the football offices . . ."). My speculation is that the approach taken (no search) wasn't from Roach but came from Gray.

Well, anyway, now we're stuck.  The program's momentum has been reversed, the greatest player in modern Fordham history is graduating, the league is down, the facilities are still an issue. Any search will probably not be turning up stellar experienced FCS candidates. Good grief, we've already seen the calls to "hire the coach from St. (fill in your favorite martyr) in Jersey."

It was nice while it lasted . . .

This is pretty much my understanding.  The elevation of AB with no search came from above Roach.  I was told Moorhead lobbied very hard for this and went over Roach's head.  They did not have a tremendous relationship.  I don't know that Roach bought into it but in the end it doesn't matter. It was the wrong thing to do and the program may pay for it for a long time to come.
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« Reply #52 on: October 02, 2017, 12:24:55 pm »

This is pretty much my understanding.  The elevation of AB with no search came from above Roach.  I was told Moorhead lobbied very hard for this and went over Roach's head.  They did not have a tremendous relationship.  I don't know that Roach bought into it but in the end it doesn't matter. It was the wrong thing to do and the program may pay for it for a long time to come.

Tom Cruise, I mean Jeff Jerry Jones Gray?
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« Reply #53 on: October 02, 2017, 04:40:22 pm »

This is pretty much my understanding.  The elevation of AB with no search came from above Roach.  I was told Moorhead lobbied very hard for this and went over Roach's head.  They did not have a tremendous relationship.  I don't know that Roach bought into it but in the end it doesn't matter. It was the wrong thing to do and the program may pay for it for a long time to come.

I have no inside knowledge, but that makes sense to me AOC.  In light of the methodical approach to the basketball search in which Roach championed the idea of hiring a firm and conducting a professional, nationwide search, it seems counterintuitive that Roach would favor a completely different approach to the football HC hiring.  When things go badly it seems that all roads inevitably lead to Gray's doorstep.  Hiring a 31 year-old with no other HC options, in many ways makes JG's life more comfortable.  AB's not in the position to rock the boat or openly grouse about facilities - and AB's forever indebted to JG for giving him his chance.  All the while the administration gets to save a few bucks on salary, and have the added cover of JM's robust endorsement of AB if things go sour.  I know its Fordham, but I can't believe that this program has unraveled so quickly... and to top it all off its just been reported that Tom Petty passed away.  Ugghh!!!     
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