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Fordham Football Falls - How far would this set us back?


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Author Topic: Fordham Football Falls - How far would this set us back?  (Read 1973 times)
PeterMartin08
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« on: October 04, 2017, 09:12:25 pm »

This is eerily reminiscent to the Masella debacle. The progress of the Clawson years was quickly blindsided by the years that followed. Seemed like a nice guy, but Masella was clearly out of his element. Moorhead turned out to be an improbable savior, and he'll be appreciated even more after he gets a head job at a major NE region program next year.

My question/debate is: How badly would a 2-win-caliber Patriot League season set us back? From a recruiting standpoint, I understand the Indiana QB (rightfully so) perked ears a few weeks ago, but the fight to become a formidable program is such an effort...the results we're seeing isn't consistent with a "down year," it reads more like a breakdown of coaching. It feels like a 3-4 year killer. These games are not competitive; and we're getting the least possible at several positions.

Football is not my coaching forte. I played some QB at the high school level but I can't scrutinize a defensive back group the way I can with baseball or basketball. I suppose my next question for those who can decipher: which players are not showing improvement? are the parts as bad as the sum? Name names, particularly on the defensive end. I have a hard time believing the talent level is that bad.
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« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2017, 09:39:19 pm »

I don't think it's fair to call out the players,. The talent level is on par or better than the PL and Ivies, and this group on paper should at least be able to hold their own with most programs in the country. Play calling is weak, there are no sophisticated defeamive schematics, the players have lost confidence and are ill prepared, and we scheduled way beyond our ability.

This lies with the coaching staff, and Roach to a degree. He has lost his players - most of whom he recruited.

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« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2017, 10:05:47 pm »

I watch or attend all of the games. Disclaimer, I do not go back and break down film.  Smiley  Here it goes.

DL - For many years, I thought we were undersized on the DL .  This season, DT's  Manny 6'5 295  and Ware 6'4 280 are certainly big enough for the FCS level. Unfortunately, neither seem to be making an impact.  DE Green is ok but never really stands out.   DE Dimon  a former walk on is definitely 6'0 230  undersized and doesn't seem to be a run stuffer or pass rusher.  Rottsolk moved over to OL and DE Pinninich has been injured for his 1st 2 years.  I do think we have some promising freshman but thats for down the road.  

LB - I thought Roberts would be the leader of our defense as a sophomore. He looks the part physically and had a terrific freshman campaign.  Yet he was most productive as a DE  yes undersized but perhaps better for his skill set as a rush end (then a read react or pass coverage LB).  Fitzgerald is athletic but not a hard hitter.  Freshman LB Cunningham is also athletic but still raw.  Thorpe once thought to be the enforcer on our D  has been injured and never really regained his form.    

DB - as experienced as we are in the back we still stink.  I blame more the coaching staff than individual players here.  Guys are running free all over the field.  If a WR TE RB makes a good play to beat you, you tip the cap..  However when no one is within 10-15 yards of them thats poor coaching.   They have no idea what there doing assignment wise.

I know we play a 4-2-5   and other than googling it during summer camp I can t say Im an expert.  Its not working.  Maybe move back to a more traditional 4-3 with a 3rd LB instead of a extra DB.  Our DC really needs to clean up the mess.              
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« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2017, 10:41:45 pm »

Haven't seen the rest of the PL so I can't judge how we stack up.  In recent seasons we seem to have focused recruiting on offense and to the point that we're pretty solid 2 deep across the board. That's unusual on this level. I think we've done this at the expense of defense.  From what I see we are sub-par talent wise on defense.  We're not big or deep on the line.  This goes back throughout the JM years.  I think our linebackers get blocked and don't hold up well against the run. I don't see a lot of quickness which is different than speed.  I think our secondary has problems if we play man or zone.  Up in the stands, not having the benifit of knowing the calls, it's hard to see what the assignments are.  I'm seeing what looks to be tentativeness in the coverage but even when it's obvious we're in straight zone or man, we don't cover well.  To me that says we don't have great cover guys.  During the game, when all else fails we should be able to play a base defense and hang on until we can make adjustments. We can't hang on and I don't see many effective adjustments (note... Stacking the line and calling some blitzes are not adjustments unless you have a specific reason.)  I haven't seen practice since camp so I don't know what we're working on or teaching. The scrimmages I saw were dominated by the offense, like they were last year.  I don't know how things change if the philosophy continues to be so much offense oriented.  Need better coaching and a lot of new players.  I'm told we've recruited some linemen on both sides of the ball and that's good.  There is a difference between bringing in big guys and brining in big guys who can play.  While I don't study them, It doesn't seem like we have great athleticism on defense and without it, it is really tough to coach them up.  If I'd have to pick, I'd rather be a little smaller on defense and more athletic, especially the way offenses are run today.
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« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2017, 11:18:44 pm »

do not recall a game where Fordham offense was Read better than Yale game; we were learned/ruled for most of contest.

Last years Colgate game (even with opening 50+ yb run) it lookd like D & Team could turn things around.

This year Not Sure at All.
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« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2017, 11:24:34 pm »

I know we play a 4-2-5 and other than googling it during summer camp I can t say Im an expert.  Its not working.  Maybe move back to a more traditional 4-3 with a 3rd LB instead of a extra DB.  Our DC really needs to clean up the mess.              

You may be on to something. A "4-2-5" may be a bit cute when you've held the opposition under 40 (looks at paper)...once.
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« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2017, 08:02:20 am »

I think our biggest problem, relative to previous years, is our O-line. I'd like to get input from those more in the know though. JimboCBA72, among others.
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« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2017, 08:23:46 am »

Right now its a feeding frenzy on the coach.  Luckily, the PL stinks this year .   

If we lose our first 2 games then Roach needs to step up and support the coach and take some responsibility and get some heat off the coach. He was a 31 y/o glorified position coach who the AD decided to hire without any search whatsoever. To boot he was taking over a top 25 program and the highest budgeted program at the school. This warranted a thorough vetting and a real process.

This one is on "Groach. "  I see no real need to beat up the coach because all he did was accept a promotion for which he was woefully under-qualified and far too inexperienced to handle.  If even half of what Fred is positing is true, does it surprise you?  This was a kid who had no experience or background to handle this position. Its like taking a paralegal and promoting him overnight to partner.
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« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2017, 08:33:03 am »

Are we sure the AD wanted to hire Breiner?  Is it possible this was done by Moorhead McShane and Gray over Roach's objection?  I do not know but it seems there are some questions that need to be answered before going after Roach on this. I personally believe this was driven by Moorhead with the support of the gridiron club who took his word as gospel. That is my opinion reading this board and talking to some people
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« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2017, 08:33:24 am »

Im no football expert by any means but the drop in production from Roberts and Adeyeye is hard to believe.
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« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2017, 08:34:05 am »

Are we sure the AD wanted to hire Breiner?  Is it possible this was done by Moorhead McShane and Gray over Roach's objection?  I do not know but it seems there are some questions that need to be answered before going after Roach on this. I personally believe this was driven by Moorhead with the support of the gridiron club who took his word as gospel. That is my opinion reading this board and talking to some people

You may very well be correct. But to date, none of the football posters here or at the time, have said a peep about how the hire went down. Nothing. Nada. (Dave) Zippo.
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« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2017, 08:35:07 am »

Im no football expert by any means but the drop in production from Roberts and Adeyeye is hard to believe.

I don't understand how the PL as whole is so bad this year. I get conferences have down years but 1-7 against the Ivy League is atrocious.
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« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2017, 08:36:17 am »

Lehigh was once the gold standard in this league. They now give up 50 points every week and are 0-5, how does that happen so quickly and dramatically?  At least we can attach it to hiring an  un-qualified kid as coach, but what the heck is happening at Lehigh?
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« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2017, 08:37:46 am »

You may very well be correct. But to date, none of the football posters here or at the time, have said a peep about how the hire went down. Nothing. Nada. (Dave) Zippo.

Are they going to tell us Moorhead led this and the gridiron club went along?   Not sure they will admit that but by saying nothing they are saying a lot.  I may be way off base here as I am connecting the dots but there appears to be a good picture of what happened.
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« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2017, 08:39:30 am »

I have no idea but you figure by now, someone would say something, I notice certain posters have disappeared who used to be prolific during football season. Fordhammanhattan for one. He used to sound like he was in the know.

Roach had the onions to fire Pecora over loud objection from some big donors. It would surprise me that he was castrated on this hire, but its possible. It is Fordham. Same old same old. There is no substitute for doing your job, no short cuts, no being swayed by outsiders. Will bite you in the tail every time. You have 40 years of experience , a good resume' at Fordham, a guaranteed contract into retirement, do your flipping job. What was the downside to tagging him as interim and doing a search, like you should have done?  Zero. He has a contract extension to finish his career, so don't mail it in. You had to know this was a  hair brained idea, to hire the youngest coach in D1 to coach at Fordham, absent any coaching search whatsoever.
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« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2017, 08:43:32 am »

I have no idea but you figure by now, someone would say something, I notice certain posters have disappeared who used to be prolific during football season. Fordhammanhattan for one. He used to sound like he was in the know.

There are some who were very vocal when we won both in favor of football and against other sports who are now very quiet.  This goes beyond the board.  They acted like we were Alabama and now they are hiding. They need to remeber this season when we fix this and get back to winning. I root for the team but I am not sorry to see some people have to shut it.
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« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2017, 09:01:59 am »

I have no idea but you figure by now, someone would say something, I notice certain posters have disappeared who used to be prolific during football season. Fordhammanhattan for one. He used to sound like he was in the know.

Roach had the onions to fire Pecora over loud objection from some big donors. It would surprise me that he was castrated on this hire, but its possible. It is Fordham. Same old same old. There is no substitute for doing your job, no short cuts, no being swayed by outsiders. Will bite you in the tail every time. You have 40 years of experience , a good resume' at Fordham, a guaranteed contract into retirement, do your flipping job. What was the downside to tagging him as interim and doing a search, like you should have done?  Zero. He has a contract extension to finish his career, so don't mail it in. You had to know this was a  hair brained idea, to hire the youngest coach in D1 to coach at Fordham, absent any coaching search whatsoever.

You are assuming Roach did not say this to the powers that be. I am not assuming that, Moorhead was the golden boy the grid iron club raised money we are coming off a successful run so it was easy for McGray to say we hear you Dave but we are going with what these guys want.  Football was winning so there was no need to go against the recommendation.
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« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2017, 09:07:08 am »

Lehigh was once the gold standard in this league. They now give up 50 points every week and are 0-5, how does that happen so quickly and dramatically?  At least we can attach it to hiring an  un-qualified kid as coach, but what the heck is happening at Lehigh?

Was thinking the same thing.
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« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2017, 09:17:45 am »

Are we sure the AD wanted to hire Breiner?  Is it possible this was done by Moorhead McShane and Gray over Roach's objection?  I do not know but it seems there are some questions that need to be answered before going after Roach on this. I personally believe this was driven by Moorhead with the support of the gridiron club who took his word as gospel. That is my opinion reading this board and talking to some people

Touchdown!
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« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2017, 09:24:12 am »

I dont think anyone knows or is talking about how the hire went down. There were no posts at the time and none since with any information. Its all speculation. So to me, it has to fall at the feet of the AD, its his job, unless we hear otherwise with something concrete. It is certainly plausible that the decision was taken out of his hands, but after the Pecora situation, it seems a little bit less likely to me.  The silence from the usual football posters is deafening.
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« Reply #20 on: October 05, 2017, 09:25:58 am »

You may be on to something. A "4-2-5" may be a bit cute when you've held the opposition under 40 (looks at paper)...once.

I haven't watched film and really don't even plan on it, but often times with a 4-2-5 you have a Safety/OLB hybrid that walks up to play the run. I don't think its "too cute" per se, but clearly our defense is not good, so I'm not opposed to trying something different or playing a traditional 4-3/3-4. I don't think its the scheme as much as it is the talent. Could be the play calling too, but the scheme itself isn't inherently bad.

We've been bad on defense for a long time. This is year isn't any different. Masella's recruits were a tougher breed imo. They also had a knack for finding the FB which helped disguise our poor defensive play. Bend by Don't Break.

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« Reply #21 on: October 05, 2017, 09:29:35 am »

You may be on to something. A "4-2-5" may be a bit cute when you've held the opposition under 40 (looks at paper)...once.

4-2-5, gives you a 4-3 or 4-4 look depending on a couple of factors.  A little different look to the strength of the formation you'll get the same coverage as you get with a 4-3 look.  If anything it should be helping against all the crazy combination routes everyone is running. Obviously it's not.
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« Reply #22 on: October 05, 2017, 09:31:54 am »


we scheduled way beyond our ability.

He has lost his players - most of whom he recruited.



1. Going into this season, the consensus was that we put together a great schedule... on paper. We just played really poorly and got beat up. however, the formula of FBS + High Level FCS + Couple winnable games is a perfect and we should strive to do that every year. There was nothing wrong with the schedule.

2. AB owns 1 full class right now. 2 of them are all JM and the other is likely a hybrid. so that's an incorrect statement.
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« Reply #23 on: October 05, 2017, 09:32:19 am »

I haven't watched film and really don't even plan on it, but often times with a 4-2-5 you have a Safety/OLB hybrid that walks up to play the run. I don't think its "too cute" per se, but clearly our defense is not good, so I'm not opposed to trying something different or playing a traditional 4-3/3-4. I don't think its the scheme as much as it is the talent. Could be the play calling too, but the scheme itself isn't inherently bad.

Agreed
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« Reply #24 on: October 05, 2017, 09:37:00 am »

Agreed

Nice to have real FB conversations rather than the TMZ BS that a couple of posters are flooding the board with.
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« Reply #25 on: October 05, 2017, 09:39:42 am »

What would you attribute a s for the monumental drop off in production from Roberts and Adeyeye?  Scheme? Coaching? Position? Those guys were good players last year.
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« Reply #26 on: October 05, 2017, 09:41:17 am »

I have no idea but you figure by now, someone would say something, I notice certain posters have disappeared who used to be prolific during football season. Fordhammanhattan for one. He used to sound like he was in the know.

Roach had the onions to fire Pecora over loud objection from some big donors. It would surprise me that he was castrated on this hire, but its possible. It is Fordham. Same old same old. There is no substitute for doing your job, no short cuts, no being swayed by outsiders. Will bite you in the tail every time. You have 40 years of experience , a good resume' at Fordham, a guaranteed contract into retirement, do your flipping job. What was the downside to tagging him as interim and doing a search, like you should have done?  Zero. He has a contract extension to finish his career, so don't mail it in. You had to know this was a  hair brained idea, to hire the youngest coach in D1 to coach at Fordham, absent any coaching search whatsoever.

We all report to someone and when the boss says, "this is what we're doing", you do it.  

And I don't believe for a minute Roach didn't bounce Pecora with getting the blessing first.   He was the University's highest paid employee. 
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« Reply #27 on: October 05, 2017, 09:42:59 am »

Football was winning so there was no need to go against the recommendation.

I think this is it. I understand many of 85's points and agree with them, but I think everyone in that office saw this as an easy hire. Check the box and move on.
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« Reply #28 on: October 05, 2017, 09:47:34 am »

I dont think anyone knows or is talking about how the hire went down. There were no posts at the time and none since with any information. Its all speculation. So to me, it has to fall at the feet of the AD, its his job, unless we hear otherwise with something concrete. It is certainly plausible that the decision was taken out of his hands, but after the Pecora situation, it seems a little bit less likely to me.  The silence from the usual football posters is deafening.

What would be needed to make it concrete?
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« Reply #29 on: October 05, 2017, 09:49:18 am »

I think this is it. I understand many of 85's points and agree with them, but I think everyone in that office saw this as an easy hire. Check the box and move on.

Not according to some of the conversations I had at the time. People active with the Gridiron Club knew this was a "hold our breath " hire.
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