fordhamfans.com
October 22, 2017, 03:04:21 pm
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News:
 
  Home Help Search Gallery Login Register  

Fordham Football Falls - How far would this set us back?


Pages: 1 [2] 3 4   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Fordham Football Falls - How far would this set us back?  (Read 1973 times)
ace93
Arbitrary and Capricious Administrator
Raging Lunatic
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 20742



View Profile
« Reply #30 on: October 05, 2017, 09:49:58 am »

We all report to someone and when the boss says, "this is what we're doing", you do it.  

And I don't believe for a minute Roach didn't bounce Pecora with getting the blessing first.   He was the University's highest paid employee. 

The move on Pecora was not fully supported and therefore Roach had a limited budget for the new coach's salary. Anything above a certain threshold needs BOT approval and he was told he would not be allowed above that threshold, so it all happened within certain confines. That's the way I heard it.
Report Spam   Logged

Nothing replaces success in the revenue sports.  Nothing.  That's not to take away from the success in the Olympic sports - they do matter.  It isn't a replacement for success in the flagship sports. - Debbie Yow, AD - NC State
71
Senior
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4527



View Profile
« Reply #31 on: October 05, 2017, 09:54:23 am »

What would you attribute a s for the monumental drop off in production from Roberts and Adeyeye?  Scheme? Coaching? Position? Those guys were good players last year.

Or playing injured. Or a combination of each.  But I can't imagine that a guy like Adeyeye all of a sudden gets coached out of productivity.  Remember he missed half the season last year due to injury (not sure what it was). Maybe it was chronic or recurred.
Report Spam   Logged
PA Ram
Senior
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2150



View Profile
« Reply #32 on: October 05, 2017, 09:57:34 am »

What would you attribute a s for the monumental drop off in production from Roberts and Adeyeye?  Scheme? Coaching? Position? Those guys were good players last year.
yeah, this one stuns me too.  Both of those guys were so tough last year that you would think 2 out of 4 would be all-league.  Roberts goes to LB and has almost zero impact.  Would love to see him back at DE.  Regardless, I don't know how the monumental drop off in overall D and particularly DL production doesn't fall on the staff.  

Same thing on the OL.  We lost our OL coach to Maryland.  He had a great reputation.  All last year I was impressed with our OL, including the Navy game.  All other aspects of that game were brutal, particularly the D but the OL held their own.  We have 4 guys returning and somehow we have a sieve OL.  It's stunning.  I don't have the explanation but it's hard not to pin this on coaching


I think this is it. I understand many of 85's points and agree with them, but I think everyone in that office saw this as an easy hire. Check the box and move on.
Exactly.  I'm one of the football guys although I don't fall into Rich's category of guys who took shots at hoops when football was up and hoops was down.  There's nothing behind the curtain.  Imo the GC is a great, supportive group but it's not as though we have members who are on a hiring committee that you may see at other schools.  Clearly Moorhead had a huge influence on this.  Whether or not Roach was on board or this was thrust upon him is all conjecture.  We just heard the announcement and it made sense given the mix of Moorhead's recommendation, a desire for continuity with what appeared to be a full cupboard left, a chance to save some salary (my guess).  I remember making a Foley reference to friends when the hire was made and part of me thought that with that experience being so recent they had to have done some incredible due diligence to know this wasn't going to be a repeat.  
Report Spam   Logged
NYRam07
Senior
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4346


View Profile
« Reply #33 on: October 05, 2017, 09:58:46 am »

Not according to some of the conversations I had at the time. People active with the Gridiron Club knew this was a "hold our breath " hire.

I was talking about the Athletics office and whoever else at Fordham that has a hand in those decisions. I was pretty active in the GC at that time too, and was all about looking outside the staff. I didn't oppose the hire, but I was surprised that we didn't open it up.
Report Spam   Logged
An Old Coach
Raging Lunatic
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 12688


View Profile
« Reply #34 on: October 05, 2017, 10:00:24 am »

The move on Pecora was not fully supported and therefore Roach had a limited budget for the new coach's salary. Anything above a certain threshold needs BOT approval and he was told he would not be allowed above that threshold, so it all happened within certain confines. That's the way I heard it.

I heard it was a little more stringent but that's more or less what I heard.
Report Spam   Logged
71
Senior
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4527



View Profile
« Reply #35 on: October 05, 2017, 10:01:23 am »

The move on Pecora was not fully supported and therefore Roach had a limited budget for the new coach's salary. Anything above a certain threshold needs BOT approval and he was told he would not be allowed above that threshold, so it all happened within certain confines. That's the way I heard it.

When you say "not fully supported" what does that mean exactly?
Report Spam   Logged
NYRam07
Senior
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4346


View Profile
« Reply #36 on: October 05, 2017, 10:02:23 am »

I also wonder how losing so many position coaches as hurt the team. We've lost a number of very talented coaches to bigger programs. You'd like to think we can fill them up with other guys that are on the same level, but maybe we haven't don't a good job at filling those positions.
Report Spam   Logged
Rich93
Class of 93
Raging Lunatic
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 12261


View Profile
« Reply #37 on: October 05, 2017, 10:11:59 am »

When you say "not fully supported" what does that mean exactly?

The BOT was not on board with firing Pecora.  He created tight relationships with them and they wanted him back. Pj Carlisimo was very vocal to any BOT member who would listen about bringing Pecora back.  To this day there are people who no longer go to basketball games because Pecora was fired.  They had season tickets for years and refuse to buy them. It was a really gutsy decision by Roach.

As for football now, we had a great run all programs have down times it is a reality that some forgot and now they are getting a taste of humility.   Of course some down times are longer than others trust me I know.  Afro
Report Spam   Logged

WINNING MATTERS
85
Raging Lunatic
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 12096


View Profile
« Reply #38 on: October 05, 2017, 10:28:02 am »

What would be needed to make it concrete?

good question.

in essence, we had zero info on the process at the time of the hire, which was odd. now, everyone is simply speculating. maybe one poster with something tangible, a little bit of real info? maybe one of the posters who has disappeared?  whm? fordhamanhattan?
Report Spam   Logged
ace93
Arbitrary and Capricious Administrator
Raging Lunatic
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 20742



View Profile
« Reply #39 on: October 05, 2017, 10:36:07 am »

good question.

in essence, we had zero info on the process at the time of the hire, which was odd. now, everyone is simply speculating. maybe one poster with something tangible, a little bit of real info? maybe one of the posters who has disappeared?  whm? fordhamanhattan?

I heard it from a fairly reliable source, so I am not speculating. It was recent though and not at the time of the hire.
Report Spam   Logged

Nothing replaces success in the revenue sports.  Nothing.  That's not to take away from the success in the Olympic sports - they do matter.  It isn't a replacement for success in the flagship sports. - Debbie Yow, AD - NC State
toby
Freshman
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 93


View Profile
« Reply #40 on: October 05, 2017, 12:00:34 pm »

How long will we be down??  That is my concern.  Unfortunately, we are within the middle of the season and have a chance to run the table in the PL to a title but what are those Vegas odds??  We lose to Lafayette this weekend than we might have a very cold October and November.  The Hoyas will smell blood and Holy Cross will look to rectify that embarrassment at yankee stadium next year by running up the score at Coffey.  (the other 3 will just throttle - as they have over the 27 years within the league - less so the bison).

It is amazing that as a university we continue to run the athletic operation as if it were 1987 rather than 2017.  - Why can we not raise money across every department from our numerous graduates? 
Report Spam   Logged
VTRAM
Senior
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2456


View Profile
« Reply #41 on: October 05, 2017, 12:46:32 pm »

To answer your question or not. There is no way to know if damage and how much is being done to the program. That being said, I think there are two things we need to keep a close eye on:

1. Talent/Recruiting

As I have mentioned many times, I think the idea that AB was handed a finished product is way overblown. Our defense was below par for most of the JM tenure and has only been getting worse. The talent on defense in the last 3 recruiting classes has been sparse. The signs from the Frosh class (AB's first real class) have been good and the Indiana QB was a great pick-up. I think he deserves the chance to get his own guys in here especially on defense to see if he can turn it around.

2. Coaching

This is harder for me to evaluate as I don't have the background to breakdown schemes and formations. I will say that as far as game management and discipline we have taken a step back. Lots of mistakes that you would expect from a first year head coach. I do worry that we are suffering from the loss of positional coaches and AB's shallow network to replace those coaches. It is natural that he would not have built the relationships that someone like JM had to draw from. JM got AB, Jon Wholley, and Tim Cary all from UCONN. Add int he loss of Tyler Bowen from Penn State and all of the Lieutenants from the JM era are gone.  Those were guys that had relationships dating back to to UCONN. It feels like a new era now with some holdovers (Pace, Fogarty) but the new guys might need some time to gel. Time will tell.

On offense I think the coaching has been good. We have scored even without our two most dynamic non-Qbs in Longhi and Chase. I have no concerns we will be able to score moving forward with this staff. Can they straighten out the defense is the question.
Report Spam   Logged
71
Senior
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4527



View Profile
« Reply #42 on: October 05, 2017, 01:08:54 pm »

The BOT was not on board with firing Pecora.  He created tight relationships with them and they wanted him back. Pj Carlisimo was very vocal to any BOT member who would listen about bringing Pecora back.  To this day there are people who no longer go to basketball games because Pecora was fired.  They had season tickets for years and refuse to buy them. It was a really gutsy decision by Roach.
. . .

Thanks. And that lack of full support translated into the limited hiring budget that Ace mentions?
Report Spam   Logged
85
Raging Lunatic
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 12096


View Profile
« Reply #43 on: October 05, 2017, 01:25:25 pm »

I heard it from a fairly reliable source, so I am not speculating. It was recent though and not at the time of the hire.

Im lost now  in this thread.Are you talking about the Pecora situation or the hiring of AB?  I dint see a comment regarding the AB process. Ill scroll up.
Report Spam   Logged
ace93
Arbitrary and Capricious Administrator
Raging Lunatic
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 20742



View Profile
« Reply #44 on: October 05, 2017, 01:35:51 pm »

Im lost now  in this thread.Are you talking about the Pecora situation or the hiring of AB?  I dint see a comment regarding the AB process. Ill scroll up.

My apologies. I was referring to AB. My comments about Pecora used his name, to help avoid some confusion, but I forgot to do the same with my comment about AB.
Report Spam   Logged

Nothing replaces success in the revenue sports.  Nothing.  That's not to take away from the success in the Olympic sports - they do matter.  It isn't a replacement for success in the flagship sports. - Debbie Yow, AD - NC State
HKRam
Freshman
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 218


View Profile
« Reply #45 on: October 05, 2017, 05:45:09 pm »

I don't think that we can assess the talent and recruiting fairly at this stage. On paper they are as good as anyone in the top 20-30. My understanding is that AB recruited incredibly well under Moorhead so I would think that the talent under his head coaching tutelage is essentially the same or better given the promise of the program. To me, it still points to his coaching - the lads are confused on the field, the play making is simple, and the defence appears to have given up. However, in fairness, Moorhead did leave the cupboard bare on defence and probably knew - if he stayed the additional year- that it would have hurt his chances at a higher level.
Report Spam   Logged
Richie68
Junior
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 1800


View Profile
« Reply #46 on: October 05, 2017, 05:49:52 pm »

On offense I think the coaching has been good. We have scored even without our two most dynamic non-Qbs in Longhi and Chase. I have no concerns we will be able to score moving forward with this staff. Can they straighten out the defense is the question.

I'm a little hesitant on some aspects of our offense this year as well as the defense.  We are averaging 23 points per game for the 5 games we've played which is somewhat below the last few years.  Against Army we scored 6 points.  Against EWU we scored 10 points, albeit admittedly these are two strong teams.  It also seems that the clock management and general play calling appears a little off to me.

Obviously, the injuries to Chase and Longi have hurt the team's offensive output.  But I'm concerned that our offensive line has been below par. EWU sacked Anderson 10 times, Army 3 sacks and Yale 4 sacks, not to mention the number of times Anderson has been pressured.  Our running game even when Chase was healthy (Army and the 1st half of EWU) was somewhat anemic.  Our running backs need some sort of holes to try to make moves and I think our line has not been as good at that as in previous years.

The bottom line is both our offensive and defensive lines are not performing well IMO.  Whether it's the talent (which it seems to be the case at least on the defensive line) or the coaching on both lines, I don't know.  I think this is where the focus has got to be in order to try to fix this going forward, talent wise and coaching.
Report Spam   Logged
An Old Coach
Raging Lunatic
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 12688


View Profile
« Reply #47 on: October 05, 2017, 08:06:27 pm »

I don't think that we can assess the talent and recruiting fairly at this stage. On paper they are as good as anyone in the top 20-30. My understanding is that AB recruited incredibly well under Moorhead so I would think that the talent under his head coaching tutelage is essentially the same or better given the promise of the program. To me, it still points to his coaching - the lads are confused on the field, the play making is simple, and the defence appears to have given up. However, in fairness, Moorhead did leave the cupboard bare on defence and probably knew - if he stayed the additional year- that it would have hurt his chances at a higher level.

Yes we can assess.  Recruiting has to equate with producing   We haven't been solid on defense under four DC's.  They could all be bad. We don't have the talent. No break through talent.  You take the scholarship your offered.  Doesn't make them bad people. But just because they have a scholarship doesn't mean they can play on this level. 
Report Spam   Logged
HKRam
Freshman
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 218


View Profile
« Reply #48 on: October 05, 2017, 08:37:53 pm »

So AOC is your conclusion that it's more the poor talent or is it the coach? You know what I believe, but I'd be interested in your thoughts.
Report Spam   Logged
An Old Coach
Raging Lunatic
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 12688


View Profile
« Reply #49 on: October 05, 2017, 08:49:29 pm »

So AOC is your conclusion that it's more the poor talent or is it the coach? You know what I believe, but I'd be interested in your thoughts.

It is the perfect storm and I said so much earlier.  When any number of posters were raving about our hot new D.C., I said at the time he was a position coach from Bucknell.  Nice but so what?  I also said at the time if he didn't have better talent he could be Bill Belicheck and it wouldn't matter.  AB wasn't the greatest choice but he he had a lot of help assembling this.  You're connected to the program. Get some film and let's have a look. I will show you on every snap where we have talent issues.  Guys falling down in a back peddle?  Really?   Linemen not strong enough to take on a trap?  Linebackers getting pancaked?  Get the film. Basic football. I'm 200 years old and I don't fall down in a back peddle.  That's basic ability. We don't have as much as we need.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2017, 09:58:57 pm by An Old Coach » Report Spam   Logged
Madram
Sophomore
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 519


View Profile
« Reply #50 on: October 05, 2017, 09:42:00 pm »

Everyone just calm the hell down. A bunch of ex D3 football players on this board talking  like they are multi million dollar boosters for Norte Dame. Sipping their brandy and demanding that a coach 4 games into his second season be fired. Seriously guys relax
Report Spam   Logged
HKRam
Freshman
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 218


View Profile
« Reply #51 on: October 05, 2017, 10:59:46 pm »

Madram, Not the case at all. We take great pride in this program. Obviously we don't all agree on the problems nor the solutions, and it gets heated at times but we all want the program to succeed. No it's not ND, but it's our program warts and all whether we are multi million dollar donors or not.
Report Spam   Logged
An Old Coach
Raging Lunatic
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 12688


View Profile
« Reply #52 on: October 05, 2017, 11:47:40 pm »

Madram, Not the case at all. We take great pride in this program. Obviously we don't all agree on the problems nor the solutions, and it gets heated at times but we all want the program to succeed. No it's not ND, but it's our program warts and all whether we are multi million dollar donors or not.

If you want the program to succeed, your not screaming for a search for a new coach 3 games into the season.
Report Spam   Logged
HKRam
Freshman
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 218


View Profile
« Reply #53 on: October 06, 2017, 06:22:53 am »

AOC, you and I both know that there is more to getting rid of AB than the first three games of the season. It's not the losses, it's how the lads are playing and how we are losing.
Report Spam   Logged
An Old Coach
Raging Lunatic
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 12688


View Profile
« Reply #54 on: October 06, 2017, 06:50:49 am »

AOC, you and I both know that there is more to getting rid of AB than the first three games of the season. It's not the losses, it's how the lads are playing and how we are losing.

No there's not.  Undermining AB publicly isn't going to help the season, the long-term outlook or speed his exit.   It's also not going to undo last year's recruiting, heal Chase or reverse the first 5 games of the season.   So, what are you looking to accomplish?
Report Spam   Logged
85
Raging Lunatic
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 12096


View Profile
« Reply #55 on: October 06, 2017, 08:04:11 am »

Everyone just calm the hell down. A bunch of ex D3 football players on this board talking  like they are multi million dollar boosters for Norte Dame. Sipping their brandy and demanding that a coach 4 games into his second season be fired. Seriously guys relax

Ed Foley got canned after 2 years. Jared Grasso was handed the job for nearly an entire season and was jettisoned. There is precedent here. However, unlike the Pecora, DW, Hill Grasso situations, AB is not some over-paid loudmouth or social media prankster. Just a very young coach who was handed a very large promotion that he likely wasnt ready for at this time of his career. He had to take it, who wouldnt?

Again, as bad as it is right now, the league stinks this year so it could balance out a bit. Imagine Lehigh, 0-5, they give up 50 points every game and are awful. At least we can point to a tangible, poorly thought out hire for this dropoff. What the heck is  going on around the PL?  We may very well have 2 issues at once. The coaching staff and the PL. Maybe its time time to bounce to the NEC.  Unrelated topics but it is hard to ignore.
Report Spam   Logged
HKRam
Freshman
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 218


View Profile
« Reply #56 on: October 06, 2017, 08:29:07 am »

I hardly think that I've undermined anything AOC. You may not like nor agree with my comments; that's understandsble. The fact is that the program is in disarray, this is 100% on AB - he is the coach, recruiter, and play caller et al. He has undermined the program and himself. My motivation is to get this feckless administration to pull their heads out of their derrière and to behave like a normal university. Do we really want to sit around and wait until he becomes Bad Coach, DW, or Pecora? He is already having problems with guys he's recruited and the university has already decided against him...at least once that has been made public. It's clear now where his Fordham career is going. Why wait, give him the hook and a payout and find his replacement before he inflicts any more damage.
Report Spam   Logged
ace93
Arbitrary and Capricious Administrator
Raging Lunatic
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 20742



View Profile
« Reply #57 on: October 06, 2017, 08:48:00 am »

I hardly think that I've undermined anything AOC. You may not like nor agree with my comments; that's understandsble. The fact is that the program is in disarray, this is 100% on AB - he is the coach, recruiter, and play caller et al. He has undermined the program and himself. My motivation is to get this feckless administration to pull their heads out of their derrière and to behave like a normal university. Do we really want to sit around and wait until he becomes Bad Coach, DW, or Pecora? He is already having problems with guys he's recruited and the university has already decided against him...at least once that has been made public. It's clear now where his Fordham career is going. Why wait, give him the hook and a payout and find his replacement before he inflicts any more damage.

As much as I appreciate the importance you feel this board has, posting here that a coach should be canned has zero influence on what will occur. Even if the admin reads this board, they are not going to suddenly be influenced to make a change b/c a guy named HKRam thinks the coach should be let go. You are just another anonymous coward in their view who can't even put their real name behind their comments. That's how they see most of us, to be honest, but most of us also don't go around saying that coaches should be canned midseason.

I do think that what we say here can influence others, like potential recruits, so that is why that type of talk really should not occur here.
Report Spam   Logged

Nothing replaces success in the revenue sports.  Nothing.  That's not to take away from the success in the Olympic sports - they do matter.  It isn't a replacement for success in the flagship sports. - Debbie Yow, AD - NC State
VTRAM
Senior
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2456


View Profile
« Reply #58 on: October 06, 2017, 09:03:31 am »

I'm a little hesitant on some aspects of our offense this year as well as the defense.  We are averaging 23 points per game for the 5 games we've played which is somewhat below the last few years.  Against Army we scored 6 points.  Against EWU we scored 10 points, albeit admittedly these are two strong teams.  It also seems that the clock management and general play calling appears a little off to me.

Obviously, the injuries to Chase and Longi have hurt the team's offensive output.  But I'm concerned that our offensive line has been below par. EWU sacked Anderson 10 times, Army 3 sacks and Yale 4 sacks, not to mention the number of times Anderson has been pressured.  Our running game even when Chase was healthy (Army and the 1st half of EWU) was somewhat anemic.  Our running backs need some sort of holes to try to make moves and I think our line has not been as good at that as in previous years.

The bottom line is both our offensive and defensive lines are not performing well IMO.  Whether it's the talent (which it seems to be the case at least on the defensive line) or the coaching on both lines, I don't know.  I think this is where the focus has got to be in order to try to fix this going forward, talent wise and coaching.

Fair assessment Richie. You are right to say that even with Chase and Longi we still would have had O-line issues.

I am very much in wait and see mode.My main point continues to be that I think the step back was bound to happen whoever our coach was this year. I think we have talent issues in the Jr and SR classes.
Report Spam   Logged
HKRam
Freshman
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 218


View Profile
« Reply #59 on: October 06, 2017, 09:27:16 am »

I'm a coward because I'm now vocal on this board Ace.

Stop with your name calling and your silly mother jokes. It's beneath you

 JUst stick to closing down threads that you find personally distasteful.
Report Spam   Logged

Pages: 1 [2] 3 4   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by EzPortal
Bookmark this site! | Upgrade This Forum
SMF For Free - Create your own Forum

Buy traffic for your forum/website
traffic-masters
Powered by SMF | SMF © 2016, Simple Machines
Page created in 0.203 seconds with 12 queries.