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Why cant our players shoot?


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« on: December 01, 2017, 08:05:22 am »

This has been going on now since DW left. Pretty much the last reliable shooters we had were Marcus Stout and J Rock ?  Frazier scored but took a ton of shots. Smith, Estwick, Butler, lot of clanking...what is the reason for such god awful shooting?

My opinion is that we continue to sign the same player. A 6ft 2 to 6ft 5 combo guard. We dont sign the pure, dead eye shooters. We sign these combo guys with defense being the main priority.

Nubauer can coach and Crawford is a heck of a defensive architect.  But its not enough. Too manyguys who shoot 35%. In my view we will be 15-17, 13-19 every year with this formula. You need to recruit more broadly, if you have to get a pure shooter who is a little weak on D, do it and use him in spots.  If the league plays small and we cant sign the pure shooters, then get a brusier and take advantage of the mismatches.

At this level of basketball, it is utterly mind boggling that guys put on the Fordham sweater and suddenly cant hit a wide open jumper. Chartouny is 30% and 10%....beyond god awful. ...

Next year what do we have coming in? 4 more combo guards. Austin, Honor, Gazi, Portley.....Havsa, Evans Hicks?   thats a lot of the same guy. Im assuming Chartouny leaves..
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« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2017, 08:13:20 am »

Yeah, good topic. So John Blackgrove thought his shot (pre-back injury) was going to get him into the league. Early in his career, Mike Haynes was a subpar perimeter shooter, but was given a green light from Mike Brown. Mark Jarrell-Wright was a Big East athlete (knee injuries) and a horrific shooter,   Kevin Anderson was 4-on-5 offense (often left entirely open by A10 defense), Brenton Butler did not shoot a good clip, Alberto Estwick was not a shooter (let alone a basketball player), Mike Moore was OK (better at Hofstra), Jon Fontan was not a natural shooter, Bryan Smith was wildly inconsistent, Fatty McMillan was not a shooter, lets not even start with Jon Severe...

So you're on to something.
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« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2017, 08:18:47 am »

I really think we could exploit the league by going traditional.  It seems like these mid majors and even PL get these big lugs down low and they can often develop because of the size mismatches. Rhoomes proved that...granted he was a highly regarded recruit who got terrible coaching from Pecora, a poor man's Rhoomes can be a big plus in a small ball league...how long do we keep the same blue print?

Next year will be make or break for Neubie with all these combo guards....the defense will keep us in games but I dont think its enough....all his eggs are in one basket....
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« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2017, 08:26:58 am »

I really think we could exploit the league by going traditional.  It seems like these mid majors and even PL get these big lugs down low and they can often develop because of the size mismatches. Rhoomes proved that...granted he was a highly regarded recruit who got terrible coaching from Pecora, a poor man's Rhoomes can be a big plus in a small ball league...how long do we keep the same blue print?

Next year will be make or break for Neubie with all these combo guards....the defense will keep us in games but I dont think its enough....all his eggs are in one basket....

I don't think we will go traditional. I think it could work, but I don't think it will happen.

As for your comment about next year, is this really where you want this thread to go? I doubt it, so not sure why you went there.
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« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2017, 08:33:15 am »

I think some of this is ball movement.  Simple stuff -- better passing and catching. 

I wish there was a stat in basketball for dropped passes because over the years, I've seen a lot of our players drop passes which then allows the defense to cover what may have been an open shooter.  IMO, we don't get enough open shots and better passing and catching could produce more open shots and better shooting percentages.  That's not to say that we don't need better shooters, too, but I think it's only part of the problem.
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« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2017, 08:38:12 am »

I don't think we will go traditional. I think it could work, but I don't think it will happen.

As for your comment about next year, is this really where you want this thread to go? I doubt it, so not sure why you went there.

Yeah of course that's where I wanted to go....you have to look forward.....the option to go traditional probably isnt even available, we have four (4) more combo guards coming in next season.....however, give the injuries up front, the bright spot is we will truly get so to see if this system can work with these players, since its all we got right now.....I hope it does, I like Neubauer  ......it's all in at this juncture....no other options than to rain 3's...
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« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2017, 08:40:42 am »

I think some of this is ball movement.  Simple stuff -- better passing and catching. 

I wish there was a stat in basketball for dropped passes because over the years, I've seen a lot of our players drop passes which then allows the defense to cover what may have been an open shooter.  IMO, we don't get enough open shots and better passing and catching could produce more open shots and better shooting percentages.  That's not to say that we don't need better shooters, too, but I think it's only part of the problem.

And therein lies the problem my friend. The pace of the game at this level is what causes those fumbles. The average dominant combo guard in HS cant adapt to the pace at this level...it's like that movie War Dogs where he says, everyone is fighting over the same big contracts.....but I live on the crumbs....everyone wants the great combo guard who can shoot the 3, problem is that its a very limited pool of players who can do it at this level, so we are not going to get those guys.....we need to live more on the crumbs!
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« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2017, 08:51:30 am »

Yeah of course that's where I wanted to go....you have to look forward.....the option to go traditional probably isnt even available, we have four (4) more combo guards coming in next season.....however, give the injuries up front, the bright spot is we will truly get so to see if this system can work with these players, since its all we got right now.....I hope it does, I like Neubauer  ......it's all in at this juncture....no other options than to rain 3's...

I do not think next year is make or break for Neubauer. If it is make or break for him then it is make or break for Fordham basketball. We have had 4 coaches before him fail in the A10 and with him it would make 5. That leads many to believe that it is not the coach. Why can't these guys recruit talent to Fordham? I don't think you want me to bring up the main reason why. Our last search resulted in a coach from Robert Morris, who basically left us at the alter similar to Jay Wright many years ago. The search ultimately led us to the coach at Eastern Kentucky. Eastern Kentucky! A coach who nobody here had on their radar. Get rid of Neubauer after next year and this job becomes a dead-end job, in my opinion.

I thought you wanted to talk about shooters.   Huh?
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« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2017, 08:52:58 am »

I think some of this is ball movement.  Simple stuff -- better passing and catching. 

I wish there was a stat in basketball for dropped passes because over the years, I've seen a lot of our players drop passes which then allows the defense to cover what may have been an open shooter.  IMO, we don't get enough open shots and better passing and catching could produce more open shots and better shooting percentages.  That's not to say that we don't need better shooters, too, but I think it's only part of the problem.

I feel the ball movement has been good this season. The shots have been there.
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« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2017, 08:58:45 am »

I do not think next year is make or break for Neubauer. If it is make or break for him then it is make or break for Fordham basketball. We have had 4 coaches before him fail in the A10 and with him it would make 5. That leads many to believe that it is not the coach. Why can't these guys recruit talent to Fordham? I don't think you want me to bring up the main reason why. Our last search resulted in a coach from Robert Morris, who basically left us at the alter similar to Jay Wright many years ago. The search ultimately led us to the coach at Eastern Kentucky. Eastern Kentucky! A coach who nobody here had on their radar. Get rid of Neubauer after next year and this job becomes a dead-end job, in my opinion.

I thought you wanted to talk about shooters.   Huh?

I am talking about shooters. And, I will add this. Maybe our guys cant shoot, in part, due to the system. Its not such a crazy idea.....what I see on the floor are guys who are not excited about playing offense in this fashion....tossing it around the perimeter like a hot potato....Chartouny jumps out as the poster child for this notion....He was a dominant player as a freshman by playing "his" game.....now he is a round peg in a square hole.....its like the Devils under LeMaire, no free agents want to come and play the trap, guys lose interest, and it shows....and I think it affects the shooting, Chartouny sees a nice lane for his patented left hand drive and body shield, but the play is to stay on perimeter and pass the ball around and he ends taking a 3 with 2 seconds on shot clock....after passing up a drive opportunity....

It's too mechanical and its fine to have a system but its also imperative to let guys play a little of the game that got them to the A-10 level...to quote my pal from Islanders, dont think, play. There is a natural flow to sports and sometimes you have to just take what is available as opposed to being locked into a system..
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« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2017, 09:06:01 am »

Premature thread in my opinion. 
Three point shooting:

Raut 40%
slanina 43%
Hicks 50%
Tavares after starting 2-11 first three games 50% last two games.

Evans and Chartouny are the two guys who continue he to not be able to shoot.  We scored 77 Wednesday.  70 against Manhattan.  I think with our defense 70 is our target which is what made Wednesday a disappointing loss on the defense.  The ball movement is getting better.  We are using Slanina in the post more.  6 games into the season and Neubauer teams tend to improve as the season goes on.  Problem this year is two big injuries not many teams can withstand that but no one is going to feel bad for them so go out find ways to win games. 
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« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2017, 09:07:07 am »

We havent been able to shoot since DW was the coach. Its far from premature. We keep signing the same player over and over again.  That's the point.

JN just happens to be a far better coach than our prior coach, and his animal defense keeps us in games. But a little diversity on the type of player being signed is needed, in my opinion. Three of the guys you mention are forwards.....which speaks exactly to my point, the guards cant shoot and we keep signing similar guys.. Do we really need four more combo guards?
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« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2017, 09:10:39 am »

We havent been able to shoot since DW was the coach. Its far from premature. We keep signing the same player over and over again.  That's the point.

JN just happens to be a far better coach than our prior coach, and his animal defense keeps us in games. But a little diversity on the type of player being signed is needed, in my opinion. 

Who gives a shyt about DW or Pecora or even last two years.   I gave you the numbers for this years team. That is what matters.  This year. 

Hicks is a guard Raut is wing brought in here because of his shooting.  Also you live in the past no one cares if you are a forward or guard anymore it is about production. 
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« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2017, 09:11:57 am »

I am talking about shooters. And, I will add this. Maybe our guys cant shoot, in part, due to the system. Its not such a crazy idea.....what I see on the floor are guys who are not excited about playing offense in this fashion....tossing it around the perimeter like a hot potato....Chartouny jumps out as the poster child for this notion....He was a dominant player as a freshman by playing "his" game.....now he is a round peg in a square hole.....its like the Devils under LeMaire, no free agents want to come and play the trap, guys lose interest, and it shows....and I think it affects the shooting, Chartouny sees a nice lane for his patented left hand drive and body shield, but the play is to stay on perimeter and pass the ball around and he ends taking a 3 with 2 seconds on shot clock....after passing up a drive opportunity....

It's too mechanical and its fine to have a system but its also imperative to let guys play a little of the game that got them to the A-10 level...to quote my pal from Islanders, dont think, play. There is a natural flow to sports and sometimes you have to just take what is available as opposed to being locked into a system..

I said I did not think you wanted this to go where you were leading it with your comment about next year. That comment was that next year is make or break. I disagree with that. Saying that next year is make or break is not talking about shooters.

We havent been able to shoot since DW was the coach. Its far from premature. We keep signing the same player over and over again.  That's the point.

JN just happens to be a far better coach than our prior coach, and his animal defense keeps us in games. But a little diversity on the type of player being signed is needed, in my opinion. Three of the guys you mention are forwards.....that is my point, the guards cant shoot and we keep signing similar guys..

I wonder why all these coaches get here and can't recruit suddenly? Pecora recruited better to Hofstra than he did Fordham.
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« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2017, 09:13:21 am »

Why can't these guys recruit talent to Fordham? I don't think you want me to bring up the main reason why.

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« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2017, 09:14:12 am »

Who gives a shyt about DW or Pecora or even last two years.   I gave you the numbers for this years team. That is what matters.  This year. 

No, the entire program needs to be evaluated, unless you want another train wreck. Right now THIS YEAR'S team is 2 players short because we are waiting on a 38% shooter from the MAAC and a bench warming Turk from DePaul. That is a big issue for this year's team.  Good luck with a team of 9 combo guards passing it around the perimeter like joint at a high school dance.

Who is our best player?  A juco small forward. Who is our next best player? A 6ft 11 juco center. Who has been our best player under JN, Ryan Rhoomes. You want to keep playing without forwards and stocking the team with these knock-off combo guards, good luck. I posted quite a bit pre-season that we were very thin up front and an injury or two would kill us..so here we are....with this year's team of combo guards who cant shoot.
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« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2017, 09:19:14 am »

No, the entire program needs to be evaluated, unless you want another train wreck. Right now THIS YEAR'S team is 2 players short because we are waiting on a 38% shooter from the MAAC and a bench warming Turk from DePaul. That is a big issue for this year's team.  Good luck with a team of 9 combo guards passing it around the perimeter like joint at a high school dance.

I think the bigger issue is the injury to the two bigs which is the present.   Oh you think two injuries to our bigs will hurt?   Thanks for clearing that up no one knew that.   Who did we pass up that coukd have filled in for those injuries?   We recruited several bigs they went elsewhere.  I donít know any team that has replacements for two bigs.  Hell Dayton played with 6 guys last year.

You are ignoring the numbers I gave you.  Admittedly it is a small sample size which again leads to my point of this being premature but right now what we have is offensively our starting horribly but possibly righting the ship last two games.  Coukd continue orvwe could slip back we donít know. Tavares is a modern wing the exact player you need in todayís game.  Why do you ignore Hicks oh that is right he does not fit your narrative. 

The problem is that some donít like the modern game more skill oriented spread them out and shoot threes.  That is what AAU is producing saying we should go traditional assumes those players are out there and will come here.  Conventional will not work here. 
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« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2017, 09:23:38 am »

The problem is that some donít like the modern game more skill oriented spread them out and shoot threes.  That is what AAU is producing saying we should go traditional assumes those players are out there and will come here.  Conventional will not work here. 

When the big schools ignore a 6ft 11 skilled big like Slanina, then I think it shows they may" be out there for us. Ditto for Taveras, a terrific, slashing small forward. I think again its diversity. You have to give a little to get. If you sign a Dave Buckner, pure shooter, and maybe he isnt quite up to snuff on D, you need to consider it. Ditto for a pure PG who maybe doesnt look to shoot .....but it appears to me that the team is being stocked with combo guards, both now and more so for next year.....I just dont think we are ever going to get the type of players to make a system like this win at this level...hopefully I am wrong..
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« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2017, 09:25:04 am »

We had 3 bigs coming into the season that were supposed to fill 1 position. I think you would be hardpressed to find a 4th big that is of any quality when they know they are coming to a system that employs 1 big at a time.
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« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2017, 09:25:41 am »

When the big schools ignore a 6ft 11 skilled big like Slanina, then I think it shows they may" be out there for us. Ditto for Taveras, a terrific, slashing small forward. I think again its diversity. You have to give a little to get. If you sign a Dave Buckner, pure shooter, and maybe he isnt quite up to snuff on D, you need to consider it. Ditto for a pure PG who maybe doesnt look to shoot .....but it appears to me that the team is being stocked with combo guards, both now and more so for next year.....

How do you know Raut is not Buckner?   6 games into his career and you are declaring he canít shoot.  This is nuts.
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« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2017, 09:28:35 am »

How do you know Raut is not Buckner?   6 games into his career and you are declaring he canít shoot.  This is nuts.

Where did I say Raut ( the anointed greatest shooter in Fordham history) cant shoot? I dont believe I mentioned him anywhere here. He is a forward. And the way things are going he may be our only forward next season. That only buttresses my point. The only guys on the team who can shot a decent percentage are forwards. The guards in this system cant shoot and we keep loading up with more of the same while we decrease the number of forwards and the minutes for the bigs.
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« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2017, 09:29:59 am »

Where did I say Raut ( the anointed greatest shooter in Fordham history) cant shoot? I dont believe I mentioned him anywhere here. He is a forward. And the way things are going he may be our only forward next season. That only buttresses my point. The only guys on the team who can shot a decent percentage are forwards. The guards in this system cant shoot and we keep loading up with more of the same while we decrease the number of forwards and the minutes for the bigs.

As an aside, I think you misunderstood what the announcers were saying about Raut during that one game.
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« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2017, 09:31:41 am »

As an aside, I think you misunderstood what the announcers were saying about Raut during that one game.

The announcers and a poster here.

Do you think these guys are not shooting well because they are leg weary from the animal defense? Its possible.
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« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2017, 09:34:43 am »

Where did I say Raut ( the anointed greatest shooter in Fordham history) cant shoot? I dont believe I mentioned him anywhere here. He is a forward. And the way things are going he may be our only forward next season. That only buttresses my point. The only guys on the team who can shot a decent percentage are forwards. The guards in this system cant shoot and we keep loading up with more of the same while we decrease the number of forwards and the minutes for the bigs.

Basketball is no longer about positions. It does not matter what your designation is offenses are geared to get everyone threes.  You are talking as though it is 1980. 2017 forwards shoot threes centers shoot threes guards shoot threes.  It does not matter if your best shooter is a forward a wing or center. 
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« Reply #24 on: December 01, 2017, 09:39:57 am »

Basketball is no longer about positions. It does not matter what your designation is offenses are geared to get everyone threes.  You are talking as though it is 1980. 2017 forwards shoot threes centers shoot threes guards shoot threes.  It does not matter if your best shooter is a forward a wing or center. 

Of course it matters.....The only guys who can score are the big guys because they are shooting over people and using their their size. Its exactly the point, you keep signing these 6ft 2 guys and they are not skilled enough or fast enough or good enough pure shooters to get their shot off effectively at this level. Good luck witha team of nine (9)  6ft 2 guys who do not ascribe to any "position."
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« Reply #25 on: December 01, 2017, 09:41:16 am »

The announcers and a poster here.

They did not say he was the greatest shooter in Fordham history or anything close to that. They said that Fordham has been looking for a great shooter for a long time and that Raut might be the guy they have been waiting for. He might be, who knows. Take a look at Buckner's stats his freshman year. 3-18, no 3's attempted. If this board existed then fans would have called for him to transfer; wasted scholarship.
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« Reply #26 on: December 01, 2017, 09:44:18 am »

They did not say he was the greatest shooter in Fordham history or anything close to that. They said that Fordham has been looking for a great shooter for a long time and that Raut might be the guy they have been waiting for. He might be, who knows. Take a look at Buckner's stats his freshman year. 3-18, no 3's attempted. If this board existed then fans would have called for him to transfer; wasted scholarship.

Raut is not the issue, read the thread.  He has size.  The point is we are going far away from size and loading up with four more smaller combo guys.

I still have not heard one plausible explanation for Chartouny's dreadful start to the season.  As herb brooks would say, you get worse every day and right now you are playing like its the middle of next week.
 
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« Reply #27 on: December 01, 2017, 09:45:39 am »

It's too mechanical and its fine to have a system but its also imperative to let guys play a little of the game that got them to the A-10 level...to quote my pal from Islanders, dont think, play. There is a natural flow to sports and sometimes you have to just take what is available as opposed to being locked into a system..

   There is definitely some of this going on.  You can see it on some of our players faces during some possessions.  The mechanical way may be our best chance at success for now.

   I think that Coach Neu/Crawford strongly believe that they can micromanage the game with a wide range of talent on the floor.  No need for high-level recruits, just serviceable ones.  Like Ace has pointed out, there's no harm in getting better athletes in those spots.

  
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« Reply #28 on: December 01, 2017, 09:47:44 am »

Right now THIS YEAR'S team is 2 players short because we are waiting on a 38% shooter from the MAAC and a bench warming Turk from DePaul. That is a big issue for this year's team.  

   100%.  I don't see those two being worth it.  Perhaps one.  We'll see.
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« Reply #29 on: December 01, 2017, 09:56:10 am »

Raut is not the issue, read the thread.  He has size.  The point is we are going far away from size and loading up with four more smaller combo guys.

I still have not heard one plausible explanation for Chartouny's dreadful start to the season.  As herb brooks would say, you get worse every day and right now you are playing like its the middle of next week.

I am replying to what you bring up. Try to keep up.

You are so all over the place, it appears you are confusing yourself. You are the one that mentioned what the announcers said about Raut and I was replying to that.

Drink some green tea, it might help make you a bit more alert.
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