Recruiting Update

[John]

After Chris Bethel's tattered career, what are the chances that St. Ray's sends another kid to Rose Hill anytime soon?

[rambacker]

After Chris Bethel's tattered career, what are the chances that St. Ray's sends another kid to Rose Hill anytime soon?

By the time Dela Rosa is a senior in 2 years, hopefully with Jio, Gaston, Wright, Brown, Freeman, Williams(?) et al, we'll be flying high enough to overcome any questions.

[joeb]

DW must be really happy with the way he has destroyed and belittled this kid.

[Chicago Ram]

 I think there is enough blame to go around; throughout his career, Bethel has shown that he sometimes makes the same mistakes over and over again; his having to miss part of last year due to academics may be a sign of a bigger problem ( not putting in the extra effort). His defense really started to pick up this year - and it's unfortunate he couldn't finish the year. DW's not blameless in this - he rode him hard - mainly, I believe, because he saw a great talent yet someone not getting there ( for whatever reason - not applying himself, worrying about offense only, not knowing his role due to the weird substitution patterns, etc. -Bethel just did not get there). DW should have tried other ways to get through to him - and hopefully DW has learned from this experience with the current and new group of players.

[txram]

DW should have tried other ways to get through to him - and hopefully DW has learned from this experience with the current and new group of players.

I think that's part of the problem.  DW should not have had to have learned from this.  He should have already known various options on how to handle it.
As a result, Bethel suffered by not getting PT.  Others who got PT suffered by not reaching their potential.  He has his own way of doing things and is inflexible in adapting to other teams' play and to the makeup of his own players.  None of which, generally, are qualities of a good coach.

[ace93]

I think that's part of the problem.  DW should not have had to have learned from this.  He should have already known various options on how to handle it.
As a result, Bethel suffered by not getting PT.  Others who got PT suffered by not reaching their potential.  He has his own way of doing things and is inflexible in adapting to other teams' play and to the makeup of his own players.  None of which, generally, are qualities of a good coach.

Why should he have already known the various options on how to handle this?
I am not even sure what that means.  Are you saying that a head coach should already know this?  I am not making excuses for him, but we hired a coach who had 4 (or was it 5) years of head coaching experience under his belt.  He is essentially learning on the job.  Many here have criticized Frank b/c he does not like going after assistants when trying to fill head coaching spots, but that is one of the reasons that is done, so that you end up with a coach with a proven way of coaching.  It clearly has not worked out very well in this case, but we have to remember who we are and who showed interest in the job.

If you start putting together a list of what everyone on this board wants in a coach you can rest assured that a guy with all those qualities will not be applying for a job at Fordham.

[T1L]

Why should he have already known the various options on how to handle this?
I am not even sure what that means.  Are you saying that a head coach should already know this?  I am not making excuses for him, but we hired a coach who had 4 (or was it 5) years of head coaching experience under his belt.  He is essentially learning on the job.  Many here have criticized Frank b/c he does not like going after assistants when trying to fill head coaching spots, but that is one of the reasons that is done, so that you don't end up with a coach with a proven way of coaching.  It clearly has not worked out very well in this case, but we have to remember that who we are and who showed interest in the job.

If you start putting together a list of what everyone on this board wants in a coach you can rest assured that a guy with all those qualities will not be applying for a job at Fordham.

Very good points. Our best path might be to accept the fact that right now we are merely (if even that, now) a stepping stone job to a better job. That means we can't be expecting to find the perfect, well rounded, long term fit as our coach. Get someone who is hungry to prove himself and make it to the BCS, and be thankful if he can give us 2-5 years where he was able to elevate the level of our program by a notch or two. Rinse, repeat. Do it enough times successfully, then as 85 has mentioned here before, you'd be like Xavier, where it took you 3-4 coaches to get you to be an elite program. Now, Xavier IS an elite job, and they're playing by vastly different rules from where they were 10 years ago and where we are now. To expect one coach to take Fordham from the 300 rpi's to the top 25 is wishful thinking, IMO.

[txram]

Why should he have already known the various options on how to handle this?
I am not even sure what that means.  Are you saying that a head coach should already know this? 

With his previous experience plus his Fordham experience thusfar, yes, I'm saying by now he should know how to handle this.  That's not to say he should know as much about coaching and winning as Wooden, Knight or Coach K.  I'm looking at it from a personnel handling standpoint and an adaptability standpoint. 
Nor am I saying it was a mistake to hire him in the first place.  But I don't see much progress in the way of "learning on the job".  And I don't like him blaming everyone but himself.
Aside from Hill, who was a fiasco, I don't expect to see Fordham hire any name or proven coach in any sport given the facilities and administrative support we have.  How Grasso can get the kids to come here that he has is a miracle. 

[Ram 83]

Get someone who is hungry to prove himself and make it to the BCS, and be thankful if he can give us 2-5 years where he was able to elevate the level of our program by a notch or two. Rinse, repeat. Do it enough times successfully, then as 85 has mentioned here before, you'd be like Xavier, where it took you 3-4 coaches to get you to be an elite program.

That's a great post, T1L, but I think it would be unfair not to take other factors into account.  Xavier has a state-of-the-art on-campus facility, and even before building it, were able to play big games at Riverfront Coliseum.  I'm not going to claim that DW is the guy to take Fordham into even the top 65, no less the top 25, but it's important to acknowledge that DW has hurdles to jump that coaches at other programs do not.

[T1L]

That's a great post, T1L, but I think it would be unfair not to take other factors into account.  Xavier has a state-of-the-art on-campus facility, and even before building it, were able to play big games at Riverfront Coliseum.  I'm not going to claim that DW is the guy to take Fordham into even the top 65, no less the top 25, but it's important to acknowledge that DW has hurdles to jump that coaches at other programs do not.

After re-reading my post, I think I might have made it seem as if going from 2009 Fordham to 2009 Xavier is a simple task. Obviously, it's not. You're right, we have some serious impediments to long term success that others do not. But that's not to say we can't find a coach who can attain short term success despite those hurdles. Maybe right now no coach is looking at Fordham as a viable long term place to succeed at, but maybe some young assistant with bigger aspirations could leverage the good (in fairness, DW and Grasso appear to be doing this in recruiting) and give both his career and our program a slight boost.

I read something yesterday that was interesting and might relate to this topic. Coach Beliein from Michigan, in preparing to take on #1 UConn on the road, didn't ask his team to try and keep pace with the Huskies over the full 40 minutes. Facing a daunting task like that could have overwhelmed them. So he challenged them to try and win in "4 minute stretches". It's not as intimidating to think that you can outplay the #1 team in the country over a mere 240 seconds. Maybe Fordham basketball needs to think about being good over the next 4 minutes as opposed to the big task of becoming the next Xavier.

[joeb]

beilen is a very creative coach you're asking too much.

[jimbo65]

I read something yesterday that was interesting and might relate to this topic. Coach Beliein from Michigan, in preparing to take on #1 UConn on the road, didn't ask his team to try and keep pace with the Huskies over the full 40 minutes. Facing a daunting task like that could have overwhelmed them. So he challenged them to try and win in "4 minute stretches". It's not as intimidating to think that you can outplay the #1 team in the country over a mere 240 seconds. Maybe Fordham basketball needs to think about being good over the next 4 minutes as opposed to the big task of becoming the next Xavier.

Humbly suggest (a la Charlie Chan) that Coach W adapt Coach Beliein's approach to 4 seconds.  If our  team can outplay their opponent only 600 times per game, we can turn this around.

[rambacker]

Sherrod Wright led Mt. Vernon HS in scoring in their last game with 31 points (24 in the second half), 10 rebounds, two assists and two steals.  This kid can play.  And it looks like we have a shot with him.

[T1L]

Humbly suggest (a la Charlie Chan) that Coach W adapt Coach Beliein's approach to 4 seconds.  If our  team can outplay their opponent only 600 times per game, we can turn this around.

I'm pretty sure that even in just 4 seconds we could still find a way to chuck up a bad 3 pointer, not get back on defense, and not box out when the shot goes up. 

[Stringer Bell]

Sherrod Wright led Mt. Vernon HS in scoring in their last game with 31 points (24 in the second half), 10 rebounds, two assists and two steals.  This kid can play.  And it looks like we have a shot with him.

I have no inside information in regard to which local school he favors, but he likely won't be going to either of his top two choices---Oklahoma State or South Carolina.  Okie State is already overbooked for next year and I found out from a guy on rivals that South Carolina is using their final '09 scholarship on a big man.  If we get Sherrod we'd undoubtedly have the top recruiting class in the league. 

[Chicago Ram]

 I hope we get him - and am glad we are in the late year discussions for some of these high recruits; I just wish we would win more and show more than we have in the last few weeks; we are certainly pitching the right people and they believe what they are hearing, so time will tell.

[fordhamram]

I have no inside information in regard to which local school he favors, but he likely won't be going to either of his top two choices---Oklahoma State or South Carolina.  Okie State is already overbooked for next year and I found out from a guy on rivals that South Carolina is using their final '09 scholarship on a big man.  If we get Sherrod we'd undoubtedly have the top recruiting class in the league. 

I don't know if I would go that far, but we would definitely be in the top 3/4, and it would be our best recruiting class on paper since Hill's Batemon class.

[b.mann]

I realize that Sherrod Wright would be quite a get...and if we managed to sign him, I would be more than satisfied with the incoming class...but there still is the problem of SIZE! Next year, we would go into the year with Green, Thomas, Gaston, and Freeman up front...just not big or strong enough. I like the idea of athleticism over size, but you have to have some bulk underneath. If Butler is redshirting and Joel Wright signs, we have no scholarship left for the possibility of a Derrick Williams, or someone of his size, signing with him. We need frontcourt strength. GO RAMS!

[vinnys]

you left Gordon out of the mix

[Chicago Ram]

You may be not considering the "I'll be in bridgeport before You" move - my guess is that Thomas discovers he likes the Nutmeg state better than the Empire state

[ace93]

I don't know if I would go that far, but we would definitely be in the top 3/4, and it would be our best recruiting class on paper since Hill's Batemon class.

You mean the class that had one guy eventually wind up at St. Bonaventure never even enrollig at FU (thankfully), one guy transfer to Stony Brook, one guy transfer to USC, one guy enroll a year later due to academics and eventually transfer to Miami and one guy start a semester late and be the only one of the lot to play four seasons here (technically 3.5 since I did say he started a semester late)?

[T1L]

You mean the class that had one guy eventually wind up at St. Bonaventure never even enrollig at FU (thankfully), one guy transfer to Stony Brook, one guy transfer to USC, one guy enroll a year later due to academics and eventually transfer to Miami and one guy start a semester late and be the only one of the lot to play four seasons here (technically 3.5 since I did say he started a semester late)?

Don't forget arguably the highest regarded player of the group, who unfortunately turned out to not be mentally well and got himself in some trouble back in his native country.

[ace93]

Don't forget arguably the highest regarded player of the group, who unfortunately turned out to not be mentally well and got himself in some trouble back in his native country.

Thanks for the reminder.  I can't believe I forgot about him.
What a dysfunctional class that was; sort of epitomized the Hill era really.

[bronxram]

Don't know if this has been posted yet.  According to a DCSportsFan.com blogger, Fordham is looking at and has offered 6'1'', 185lb junior starting shooting guard Cedrick Lindsay from Gonzaga College High School.  I can't verify the rumor yet, but I have seen Cedrick play a number of times, and he has actually outshined teammate and Duke signee Tyler Thornton in a number of big WCAC contests.  Travis Lyons was in attendance for a WCAC matchup between Gonzaga and O'Connell on Sunday so perhaps the rumor is true. 

From what I have read and the conversations I have had, it looks like his size is the main reason he is not getting looks from bigger programs.  He is definitely a player though and plays for a program that has run a Princeton offensive system for many years with great success.  The Gonzaga program is a great example of how successful a team can be when the right players really do buy into a coach's system.

Here is the ESPN Evaluation on Cedrick: http://insider.espn.go.com/ncb/recruiting/tracker/player?recruitId=44532&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fncb%2frecruiting%2ftracker%2fplayer%3frecruitId%3d44532

[RAM71]

Do we really need another 2G and where are all these scholarships for 2010 coming from?

[rambacker]

Do we really need another 2G and where are all these scholarships for 2010 coming from?

One more time, can you spell "Derrick Williams"?

[RAM71]

One more time, can you spell "Derrick Williams"?

I agree, Rambacker. Just wondering why Travis Lyons would be attending this kid's game when we need to use the ship on Derrick Williams.     

[ramdude]

I think we should put the fullcourt press on Derrick Williams, Will Regan, and Devon Collier before we think about Cedric Lindsay, but i am quite intrigued nonetheless.  We are not, however, in a position to be picky, so if we ended up with more guards (emphasis: talented), then so be it.  Id rather have a loaded backcourt of wings and guards than NEC level front court players if we dont land derrick, will regan, or collier.

[rambacker]

I think we should put the fullcourt press on Derrick Williams, Will Regan, and Devon Collier before we think about Cedric Lindsay, but i am quite intrigued nonetheless.  We are not, however, in a position to be picky, so if we ended up with more guards (emphasis: talented), then so be it.  Id rather have a loaded backcourt of wings and guards than NEC level front court players if we dont land derrick, will regan, or collier.

Will Regan is not coming to Fordham.  But Williams and Collier are very possible.

We are also looking at 5' 9" Junior PG Daquan Brickhouse from Peekskill HS in New York.  He's very quick, an excellent ballhandler, and is being followed by Fordham, Cincinnati, Providence and LaSalle.  For the second year in a row he was named MVP and won Westchester County's Slam Dunk tournament.  As team captain, he has led Peekskill HS to consecutive titles and a perfect record of 19-0.



 

[bronxram]

Just to clarify, I personally cannot say if Coach Lyons was in attendance to scout Lindsay in particular.  He is from the area and a WCAC almuni so maybe he just wanted to see a good game while he was in town.  It is strange though that he would attend a game of a hated DeMatha rival but that would explain why he was there looking at Lindsay.

Also, DCSportsFan said that Coach Larranaga of George Mason was in attendance at the aforementioned GZ/OC game.  Not sure who he was looking at though.