New AD Search to commence.

[jimbo65]

Fordham doesn't move this quickly or spontaneously on major decisions, especially when it comes to major personnel decisions.  Like it or not, Frank was an institution and as such was useful to the Administration.  I'm sure the top ranks would have had plans for how to ease Frank out if/when they needed to make a move.  I'm quite confident that this move was in the works for months and is in response to all the conference realignments and the sense that Fordham needs to get on the ball if it wants to survive and not be left behind, again.  Hopefully Fordham isn't just scapegoating Frank for its own indecision and ambiguity over the years.

DR, I hope you are correct but doubt that Fr. McShane cares that much about our athletics.  I can buy that he  is tired of dealing with the mess our proram seems always to be in and told, whoever, get somebody to straighten this about so I can deal with wht I am really interested in.  Unfortunately his approach is part of the problem.

[An Old Coach]

DR, I hope you are correct but doubt that Fr. McShane cares that much about our athletics.  I can buy that he  is tired of dealing with the mess our proram seems always to be in and told, whoever, get somebody to straighten this about so I can deal with wht I am really interested in.  Unfortunately his approach is part of the problem.

I hope that's not the case.  It does make sense, though.   If Gray is involved, that is a very bad sign. 

[85]

The decision to change Frank's role was not even discussed at the BOT level. Jeff Gray is officially chairing the search committee.

Actually, i heard similar this morning but not the 'exact" same thing. The Finance guy is officially the Chair but I also heard that Gray will remain in charge of athletics. We will have to wait and see if this is true. If it is, this might not be the home run we all thought, maybe just a double off the wall.

[DamnRam]

I hope that's not the case.  It does make sense, though.   If Gray is involved, that is a very bad sign. 

An even worse sign would be if Gray announces that after conducting an intergalactic-wide search, he has determined that he is in fact the best person to take over the Athletics Department, and that he will report to himself in his other role as VP of Student Affairs.

[Rich93]

Not good.

[DamnRam]

The decision to change Frank's role was not even discussed at the BOT level.

That would concern me if true.  We have an Athletics committee on the BOT, and the idea of what to do with Frank if/when the time comes to get serious about the direction of the AD was never discussed, even informally?  Is there a new vision for what his replacement will be expected to do, or will it be more of the same?  I have no inside info on this, but my gut is telling me that even if this wasn't a formal decision it came from either a few influential people on the BoT or Father McShane and was blessed by the other, then handed to Gray to execute.  I think that even if the BoT never formally made a decision, there must have been some informal side discussions.  Especially if Tognino was Frank's friend, he may have informally negotiated a graceful exit strategy for him.  That's what I would have done to make it easier for everyone.

This all seems more realistic to me than the idea that Father McShane or Gray suddenly decided enough is enough.  Unless that is they have consciously decided to scapegoat Frank, and that this "promotion" is a quid pro quo for agreeing to take one for the team just this one more time.

[PA Ram]

Actually, i heard similar this morning but not the 'exact" same thing. The Finance guy is officially the Chair but I also heard that Gray will remain in charge of athletics. We will have to wait and see if this is true. If it is, this might not be the home run we all thought, maybe just a double off the wall.

ugh.

It seems that would cut the # of interested candidates down to (effectively) nothing. 

[DamnRam]

ugh.

It seems that would cut the # of interested candidates down to (effectively) nothing. 

Not so sure.  If they keep the job as it is, it would be a great opportunity for someone who wants to get paid a lot for doing little, all while having little real responsibility for results.  I'd imagine there are a lot of people who would jump at that chance.

[ace93]

Not so sure.  If they keep the job as it is, it would be a great opportunity for someone who wants to get paid a lot for doing little, all while having little real responsibility for results.  I'd imagine there are a lot of people who would jump at that chance.

I interpreted "(effectively) nothing" to mean nobody worthwhile. The type of person you describe would not be worthwhile.

[NYRam07]

There has been a lot of chatter on this thread so I am sorry if I skimmed over it.. but has anyone thought that Charlie Elwood would just slide right in? Seems like a very Fordham Thing to do imo.

[ace93]

There has been a lot of chatter on this thread so I am sorry if I skimmed over it.. but has anyone thought that Charlie Elwood would just slide right in? Seems like a very Fordham Thing to do imo.

It has been mentioned. I think that if a national search is done, as they claim will be the case, it will be hard to hire someone internally.

[71]

Anyone have any idea what this position should pay to draw appropriate candidates?

[PA Ram]

I interpreted "(effectively) nothing" to mean nobody worthwhile. The type of person you describe would not be worthwhile.

exactly

[B2Bomber]

The decision to change Frank's role was not even discussed at the BOT level. Jeff Gray is officially chairing the search committee.

If that is true we are in REAL trouble.  And I mean it.   He can't even get the ham sandwiches right in the deli and the reslife scandals this past year.    

He isnt qualified, in my opinion, to hire a gopher hunter for Ground Hog Day.  And yes, that analogy is appropriate here in more ways than one!  

[T1L]

Actually, i heard similar this morning but not the 'exact" same thing. The Finance guy is officially the Chair but I also heard that Gray will remain in charge of athletics. We will have to wait and see if this is true. If it is, this might not be the home run we all thought, maybe just a double off the wall.

I would say that if Gray is still in the mix, it's more like a rocket off the wall, but as you're about to coast into second base you break your ankle and then get tagged out.

[John]

I'd find it hard to believe that a University would replace/pasture-ize an Athletic Director, particularly one who'd held the job for 27 years, without some discussion/input from the Board of Trustees. The Board does have an Athletics Committee, after all, and if you're not going to consult them on perhaps the biggest athletics decision a University can make, what are they there for? Plus, I suspect that the Board needed to be involved in the creation of a new "Assistant Vice President" position.

As for Gray, I think he needs to be focused more on the Student Services role he was hired to perform. When a parent is spending up to $55K per year to send his/her child to Fordham, and the campus foodservice is filthy and infested, that's just unacceptable. It may be a vendor, but Gray's job is to supervise the vendor contract, and IMHO, last year's debacle is one of career-ending proportions. And the AD's been reporting to Jeff for 14 years now, so if the BOT is dissatisfied with the performance of the Athletic Department, well Gray "owns" some of that, too. Fordham's put up how many new dorms on Rose Hill in the past 14 years? I don't think anyone could adequately handle that portfolio AND supervise athletics. No sane manager would ask one of this execs to do it (are you listening, Fr. McShane?).  If you want to appoint Jeff as the school's delegate to an conference board, or something, fine. But he can't have any line authority for athletics any longer.

If Frank has any input into the vetting process, it should be only as a Warning From the Past, and he should be required to wear a scapular with a photo of Big Pete Carlesimo to all Search Committee meetings.

History lesson: How could Fordham have been a national basketball sensation in 1970-71, playing games to a sold-out Garden, and then be passed over for Big East membership just a few years later? The answer is that a VP for Student Affairs (Creepy Crawley) injected himself into athletics, got line responsibility over the AD, waged a turf war, and weakened our "marquee" mens' basketball program to the point where it had become a joke by the time the BE was coming together. If this move is made with an eye on ongoing conference realignments, Fordham cannot afford to repeat the mistake. Gray's been involved in Athletics since 1998. Men's basketball has had a winning record only once since then, has racked up 20+ losses in nearly half those seasons. Just saying. If we're going to fight conference wars, we need to do so with a strong, respected AD who reports directly to the BOT and President of the University.  History teaches that Fordham athletics does not do well when the VP for Student Whatever is injected into the process.

And our students deserve roach-free fare at mealtime.

[B2Bomber]

I'd find it hard to believe that a University would replace/pasture-ize an Athletic Director, particularly one who'd held the job for 27 years, without some discussion/input from the Board of Trustees. The Board does have an Athletics Committee, after all, and if you're not going to consult them on perhaps the biggest athletics decision a University can make, what are they there for? Plus, I suspect that the Board needed to be involved in the creation of a new "Assistant Vice President" position.

As for Gray, I think he needs to be focused more on the Student Services role he was hired to perform. When a parent is spending up to $55K per year to send his/her child to Fordham, and the campus foodservice is filthy and infested, that's just unacceptable. It may be a vendor, but Gray's job is to supervise the vendor contract, and IMHO, last year's debacle is one of career-ending proportions. And the AD's been reporting to Jeff for 14 years now, so if the BOT is dissatisfied with the performance of the Athletic Department, well Gray "owns" some of that, too. Fordham's put up how many new dorms on Rose Hill in the past 14 years? I don't think anyone could adequately handle that portfolio AND supervise athletics. No sane manager would ask one of this execs to do it (are you listening, Fr. McShane?).  If you want to appoint Jeff as the school's delegate to an conference board, or something, fine. But he can't have any line authority for athletics any longer.

If Frank has any input into the vetting process, it should be only as a Warning From the Past, and he should be required to wear a scapular with a photo of Big Pete Carlesimo to all Search Committee meetings.

History lesson: How could Fordham have been a national basketball sensation in 1970-71, playing games to a sold-out Garden, and then be passed over for Big East membership just a few years later? The answer is that a VP for Student Affairs (Creepy Crawley) injected himself into athletics, got line responsibility over the AD, waged a turf war, and weakened our "marquee" mens' basketball program to the point where it had become a joke by the time the BE was coming together. If this move is made with an eye on ongoing conference realignments, Fordham cannot afford to repeat the mistake. Gray's been involved in Athletics since 1998. Men's basketball has had a winning record only once since then, has racked up 20+ losses in nearly half those seasons. Just saying. If we're going to fight conference wars, we need to do so with a strong, respected AD who reports directly to the BOT and President of the University.  History teaches that Fordham athletics does not do well when the VP for Student Whatever is injected into the process.

And our students deserve roach-free fare at mealtime.

This is part of our pathetic legacy...mismanagement from the top down.  Putting athletics under VP for Student Services is assinine.    NOBODY DOES THAT except Fordham.   LUDICROUS.    IGNORAMUS. 

If you hire the right AD, he or she does their job correctly and expediently and within budget and the President is hardly bothered.     If you hire a buffoon, its a headache for the President and he starts looking for ways to rid himself of the meddlesome madness.    Hence our dilemma.

But if they have Gray on the search committee again and Chairing it?   OH LORDY.   Here we go again. 

Ground Hog Day.

[John]

Simple history lesson: combining responsibility for student services and intercollegiate athletics weakens both.  At Fordham, we've proven that twice in the past 40 years, with disastrous results each time.

Here's a chance to get it right. Let's hope we aren't looking at strike three.

[Bronx Boy]

If Fordham has Gray on the search committee and chairing it, ... here we go again. 

Ground Hog Day !

Havin' Gray on the selection committee is akin to havin' da fox in charge of da hen house.

Whut is dey thinkin' ?

Is dey thinkin' at all ?

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2548/4247407554_a4d5c104cd.jpg

[Battering Ram]

Putting athletics under VP for Student Services is assinine.    NOBODY DOES THAT except Fordham.

It may be assinine but there are schools that have a similar structure.  I think there are very few if any schools in I-A that have that kind of structure but it's more common in I-AA (where we are) and the lower divisions although most schools have use a direct reporting structure from the AD to the president.

[Rich93]

It may be assinine but there are schools that have a similar structure.  I think there are very few if any schools in I-A that have that kind of structure but it's more common in I-AA (where we are) and the lower divisions although most schools have use a direct reporting structure from the AD to the president.

IAA does not exist anymore and the only sport that played IAA when it existed was football.  All of our other sports are in the A-10. 

This reporting structure has not worked for the past 14 years so I do not see any reason to think it will suddently work with a new AD.  I have heard several people who contribute significant money to the university say the same thing: the reporting structure must change or I will no longer be donating money.  It seems the alumni realize the importance of this hire and are making the case for a complete overhaul.  The only question is will the administration listent to them. 

[Battering Ram]

IAA does not exist anymore and the only sport that played IAA when it existed was football.  All of our other sports are in the A-10. 

This reporting structure has not worked for the past 14 years so I do not see any reason to think it will suddently work with a new AD.  I have heard several people who contribute significant money to the university say the same thing: the reporting structure must change or I will no longer be donating money.  It seems the alumni realize the importance of this hire and are making the case for a complete overhaul.  The only question is will the administration listent to them. 

I use I-AA interchangeably w/ FCS.  I agree that it doesn't work for us and I'd like to see it changed but people who go around saying that "no one does it this way" are wrong especially when some of the schools that have this structure have profiles similar to Fordham.

[85]

I would say that if Gray is still in the mix, it's more like a rocket off the wall, but as you're about to coast into second base you break your ankle and then get tagged out.

I was thinking more along the lines of the hot date with the supermodel, until you realize later that she is from Rupaul's Drag Race.......

Right now, there is a  lot of unknown out there with this.   I also notice that we finally get Frank out as AD after 27 years and the most prolific poster suddenly has disappeared.  Amusing.

[Battering Ram]

I was thinking more along the lines of the hot date with the supermodel, until you realize later that she is from Rupaul's Drag Race.......

Right now, there is a  lot of unknown out there with this.   I also notice that we finally get Frank out as AD after 27 years and the most prolific poster suddenly has disappeared.  Amusing.

ace has been posting regularly on this.

[T1L]

I was thinking more along the lines of the hot date with the supermodel, until you realize later that she is from Rupaul's Drag Race.......

Right now, there is a  lot of unknown out there with this.   I also notice that we finally get Frank out as AD after 27 years and the most prolific poster suddenly has disappeared.  Amusing.

That certainly captures the "big excitement, turned into big disappointment" sentiment too!

I agree that trying to read the tea leaves here isn't simple. As has been stated here many times when people go off about Frank, the real point here is that Frank was/is the symptom, not the disease. He was the AD that the administration wanted- if they wanted more out of him, he wouldn't have lasted a quarter of a century with that putrid track record. Until it's clear that there was some tipping point, and the school has changed it's mind re: how athletics fits into the big picture, this is a wait and see scenario rather than dancing in the streets.

[JohnG92]

Having the AD report to the VP of Student Affairs seems logical to me.  Why does the AD necessarily have to report to the President?

It puts the VP of Student Affairs into a position where he/she has to manage both up and down, which is a challenge, but feasible in theory.

[Rich93]

Having the AD report to the VP of Student Affairs seems logical to me.  Why does the AD necessarily have to report to the President?

It puts the VP of Student Affairs into a position where he/she has to manage both up and down, which is a challenge, but feasible in theory.

The job of VP Student Affairs is big enough on its own that the person should also not be dealing with a Div. I athletic department.  Also, the Athletic director is one of the, if not the, highest profile position in the University.  Stories are not written in the New York post about the VPs of Student Affairs, they are written about Athletic Directors.  A position that visible and important should report directly to the President without any filter between them.  Also Gray has been here for 14 years so our athletic department's performance is also his fault.  We cannot have anyone from the Gray/McLaughlin era in a position to influence athletics because of our lack of success during their tenure.  They must make a clean break to make it clear to the alumni that things are going to change. 

[DamnRam]

The job of VP Student Affairs is big enough on its own that the person should also not be dealing with a Div. I athletic department.  Also, the Athletic director is one of the, if not the, highest profile position in the University.  Stories are not written in the New York post about the VPs of Student Affairs, they are written about Athletic Directors.  A position that visible and important should report directly to the President without any filter between them.  Also Gray has been here for 14 years so our athletic department's performance is also his fault.  We cannot have anyone from the Gray/McLaughlin era in a position to influence athletics because of our lack of success during their tenure.  They must make a clean break to make it clear to the alumni that things are going to change. 

+.5.  I take exception with the part about how the AD is the highest profile position in the University.  I'd say that's the President.  Also, it would NOT be good if the AD were indeed the highest profile position because that would validate the concerns that the Jesuits and academics have about Fordham becoming a jock school.

I think they do need a solid performer in the AD role, and that they need a clean break.  I think the fact that Athletics is a big department in every respect (staff, budget, public profile, facilities, etc.) means it really should be treated as a strategic investment to be managed professionally like the business that it is.  You can't do that when you've got a multiple-hats yes-man running interference, with a dual mandate to make it successful but not too successful (i.e. keep it under control).

[JohnG92]

Also, it would NOT be good if the AD were indeed the highest profile position because that would validate the concerns that the Jesuits and academics have about Fordham becoming a jock school.

that's what I think Fordham is thinking. We can't break completely from the past b/c Fr. McShane has been here almost 10 years now. He owns this and he isn't going anywhere. Plus, I don't think he wants the AD reporting to him; the precedent has been set.

If they get a really good AD in here, don't you think he or she will get some rope that Frank didn't have?  I think so.  To be honest, other than football, I'm not sure what other sports Jeff Gray enjoys managing.

[Rich93]

DamnRam and John.  Who is more well known, the AD of Notre Dame or its President.  How about Duke?  UNC?  Stanford?  In reality the coaches of marquee sports are more well known than botht he President and the AD combined.   As for McShane not wanting the AD to report him, that is tough luck.  Sometimes you have deal with things you would prefer others could handle.  He has permitted a department to woefully underperform that gets more publicity than any other department in the University.  It is time he dedicate some time to it and get Jeff Gray out of the way.  What has Jeff Gray done to prove that he is in any way competent enough to be in a position to make decisions on athletics?  In fact, his job performance over the last 14 yeas proves the opposite, he is not qualified for this job and should be relieved of these duties so he can focus on being vice president of student affairs. 

For years Fordham has held itself as this great academic institution that does not want to be over run by athletics.  It is a cop out, there are schools that make our academics look like a community college whose ADs report to the President and are more well known than the President.  The academic reputation of those schools has not suffered because of this and the alumni/students have the benefit of national sports programs that provide a source of pride and comradery for the community.