Varsity Lacrosse at Fordham - yes, no? If so, when?

[ace93]

I know Kenman has mentioned it a lot, but John's post (quoted below) in the AD thread made me think to start a topic on it.

b. Start Varsity Lacrosse, Men's and Women's. Hire coaches, provide some partial schollies for kids, figure on 2 years until you enter competition. [Use the Marquette model].  We may also have to re-evaluate some "minor" sports for which we lack adequate facilities to be competitive. I might also look into "facilities-sharing" agreements with other local colleges.

I don't think we'd need to wait two years. I think we recruit one class, add the club players to that class and hit the ground running. The big issue is finding a field for games and practice, but that's where the top of the garage could come into play.

The unfortunate side of it though is that we likely would need to drop some sports. Title IX would not be an issue if we add both men's and women's as John suggests, but I think we spread ourselves too thin already as it is.

[Ramon]

I wouldn't think about adding another sport until we maximize the ones we have or build an arena. We just don't have the money

[John]

The key for LAX (and some of the other sports) may lie not in building on campus, but acquiring a bit of land within striking distance of campus to set up some playing fields. Marquette did this for soccer in Menominee Valley, and the acquisition of the facility paved the way for lacrosse as well. The school devotes very little on-campus space to varsity athletics; the Al McGuire Center is for women's basketball and volleyball, mens' basketball practice and convocations. [The old Marquette Gym still stands, but it's been replaced twice over, and it's still newer than venerable RHG. They have no football team, nor even baseball, for lack of facilities. A 2-3 acre plot of land near Fordham could house a track, a lax/soccer facility, some stands, etc., and wouldn't cost gazillions.

[ace93]

I wouldn't think about adding another sport until we maximize the ones we have or build an arena. We just don't have the money

That's why I said that we'd need to drop some sports. How do you maximize track & field, cross country, swimming, golf?  I think lacrosse is even more worth having than soccer.   With the amount of money spent on sports these days you need to maximize exposure and lacrosse does that.

[T1L]

Lacrosse is a no brainier.
- ideal geographic location for recruiting purposes
- as ace said, title ix friendly
- its proven/possible that top academic schools, as well as private and smaller schools, can compete at top level consistently
- not overly expensive (at least from an infrastructure/facilities perspective)

Lacrosse isn't going to have the upside of basketball obviously, but it's a secondary sport where we could be successful at a cost effective level- can't really ask for much more.

[pjd]

Have new AD speak with Bloomberg about rebuilding Kazimiroff Blvd field.  If Fordham can utilize this field, Lacrosse can work.  Bloomberg donated $1 million to recent Fordham campaign.

[Ram Bam 76]

I could not care less about lax even though I live in a big lax community. Let's concentrate on getting that new 7,500 seat on-campus arena/convocation center.

[85]

I would like to see us drop the term "secondary" sports entirely. We should be even keeled and strive to win in all our sports. Maybe a few of these lesser known sports getting national attention would be the kick in the ass that the other "primary" sports need. I'd love to hear a kick ass AD sit down and tell Pecora that he is taking away $250K in funding and giving to the rowing coach who earned it.  

[ace93]

Would never happen and in my opinion never should.

[85]

Why should it never happen?  Do tell.

Pecora, just one example, was given significant resources upon hire. He went out and sent his assitants on an expensive Midwest folly that yielded nobody. He went and  hired Derreck Phelps: disaster.  He pissed away a scholarship on a walk-on. He pissed away another on a D3 level player .  If you want money and you get money and you demonstrate an inability to properly manage it, then it should be taken away or reduced or allocated elsewhere.....sort of like in the real world. 

There has been too much taken for granted. You dont think cutting someone's budget because they have perhaps demonstrated an inability to properly manage that budget is going to send a message?  Maybe you need to prove it and earn that allocation back.  Just because you were given an increased budget doesnt mean you get to keep it and squander it. Accountability, every year.

[ace93]

I don't think you take away the resources that are needed to succeed. You do oversee and manage to ensure the resources are being used correctly. Giving the resources to rowing would be a colossal waste of money. You give that money to rowing to what end, so that they do better in a sport nobody pays attention to?

We are finally providing a decent budget to our most visible sport and you say that they should take money away from them. The AD is as responsible for how the coaches use the money as the coaches are.

Had Frank done something like that, you would have torn him to shreds for expecting a coach to provide results without adequate resources.

Anyway, plenty of threads to talk about this. Should we add lacrosse?  Yes/no and why?

[85]

No, I dont think we add Lacrosse right now. That would be a knee jerk.

I think we have to take it one step at a time. First, we need to hire an AD who is competent, and let him or her reasearch that issue in accordance with doing a soup to nuts overview of all our sports. Lax should be on the front burner in a revamp but there are other things that are more pressing before we can even get there. A new AD is going to have to do an overview of all sports, decided what to keep and what to maybe cut and then do a review of staff, coaches, facilities. Its a Ruthian task given all of the fairly obvious things that were not done previously. Lax makes sense but I think it makes sense in 3 years. 

[NYRam07]

When I think Lacrosse I think Duke, Johns Hopkins, Notre Dame, UVA
When I think Lacrosse I think Money
When I think Lacrosse I think Chaminade, St. Anthony's and Del Barten

I see a lot of positives.

We'd need to increase campus security though, Lax bro's breed trouble

[An Old Coach]

No, I dont think we add Lacrosse right now. That would be a knee jerk.

I think we have to take it one step at a time. First, we need to hire an AD who is competent, and let him or her reasearch that issue in accordance with doing a soup to nuts overview of all our sports. Lax should be on the front burner in a revamp but there are other things that are more pressing before we can even get there. A new AD is going to have to do an overview of all sports, decided what to keep and what to maybe cut and then do a review of staff, coaches, facilities. Its a Ruthian task given all of the fairly obvious things that were not done previously. Lax makes sense but I think it makes sense in 3 years. 

Absolutely agree. 

New AD needs to develop a strategic plan that is adopted by the University that serves as a blue print for the next 10 years.  What does Fordham want to achieve through athletics?  What are the resources that they will commit.

You aren't going to just drop a couple of minor sports to bring in lacrosse.  It would be a big-time financial commitment.  We'd probably have to have a woman's team as well.  We also need a varsity training complex.  What we have now is pitiful and the recreation complex that we've heard about is not what is needed.  I was out at Loyola Chicago over the weekend and their new athletic facilities look first rate, for a school without football.  Fordham needs at least that X2 because of football.  I also don't know how we add lacrosse w/o another athletic field.  Maybe Murphy Field can be converted but then there is no space for clubs and recreation.  All this needs to get figured out.   I don't see adding any sports until the University is commited to building a competitive athletic program.   The last thing we need is another half assed program that will flounder.

[ace93]

AOC, you don't need to add a women's team if you drop some men's teams. I agree with you on the need for a new field and that is why I mentioned the top of the garage which is too small for a soccer field and stands, but would work for lacrosse. You are very also about training facilities. I don't think it needs to be added now, but I do think it needs to be on the table for discussion when the new AD comes on board.

[Ramon]

You aren't going to just drop a couple of minor sports to bring in lacrosse.  It would be a big-time financial commitment.  We'd probably have to have a woman's team as well. 

We would have a varsity woman's team before we would have a men's team for title IX reasons

[fc79]

85 I appreciate the nod to the crew team and the $250k-we could certainly use it but I think it would be better spent investing in those teams that could give us revenue as well as national recognition ie.basketball.
Ace, i know this is a lacrosse thread but just as a clarification, rowing isnt necessarily a sport "nobody" cares about,it just happens to be a fact that the athletic adminisitration did nothing to highlight their numerous successes over the past 20 years(16 national champions).
Do we need lacrosse? If resources were unlimited and we had the space, sure.But the answer to both is no. Perhaps the new AD will undertake a study to see if lacrosse is viable and if it is he will probably find the resources to build a program.At the moment I don't see how this would be on the top of anyones list.

[SIram]

Just my opinion but the new AD will have to perform a comprehensive review of our sports and then deliver a strategic  plan for the next 5-10 which I hope will include aggressive fundraising for much needed facilities.  Once that has been completed we will know if Lax fits into our plans

Let's face it, we need to get a lot better at our current sports and dramatically improve our existing facilities before we even think of adding new sports

[An Old Coach]

AOC, you don't need to add a women's team if you drop some men's teams. I agree with you on the need for a new field and that is why I mentioned the top of the garage which is too small for a soccer field and stands, but would work for lacrosse. You are very also about training facilities. I don't think it needs to be added now, but I do think it needs to be on the table for discussion when the new AD comes on board.

I think there is a difference between what Title IX mandates and good p.r.  If Fordham is going to become a lacrosse school, go all the way in, especially with the gender split in enrollment. You're begging for issues if you don't do both.  Doesn't hqve to be at the same time.

I would say acquire the land somewhere and build a outdoor complex for lacrosse/soccer/baseball.  Maybe up at Dunwoodie in Yonkers.  As for the training facilities, I don't think it makes any sense to add any sports until a facility is in place.

[ace93]

We would have a varsity woman's team before we would have a men's team for title IX reasons

That's the common thought, but that's not really how Title IX works. Is not about doing more for women. Butler recently got cited for not providing enough scholarships for men and at the same time not offering enough opportunities for women. Fordham is currently split 47% male, 53% female. We could always drop a few sports on the men's side and get the lacrosse scholarships from there.

All that said, now is not the time perhaps. I think we first should look into cutting some sports. We don't have the facilities to host as many sports as we do. Football, men's and women's soccer and baseball share the same home field. We do not have a proper track or a regulation sized swimming pool. Plenty of candidates in there for being cut. That does not even to into our poor basketball facilities, but I don't think those are candidates for being cut.

AOC, I don't see how PR comes into play here.

fc79, I am sure some care about rowing. There's not a thing in this world that is not of interest to someone.  Rowing looks to be one of the toughest sports out there and I've watched it before, but in the grand scheme of things it is not high on the public interest scale. I would be thrilled if we could sponsor 25-30 sports without issue, but that's just not the case. In my opinion that means that all sports other than basketball are on the potential list to be cut.

[An Old Coach]

AOC, I don't see how PR comes into play here.

TitleIX isn't strictly about numbers.  If it were schools would be adding/subtracting scholarships all the time to be in compliance so I don't think you could make the case for dropping a couple of minor sports and shift them to men's lacrosse and not have a women's program. 

I think absolutely there is a p.r. issue involved.   When a writer for The Ram or a member of the faculty senate asks why a women's program isn't being started at the same, time, how are you going to answer that?   There is no way you wouldn't be creating an issue that you want no part of. 

[ace93]

TitleIX isn't strictly about numbers.  If it were schools would be adding/subtracting scholarships all the time to be in compliance so I don't think you could make the case for dropping a couple of minor sports and shift them to men's lacrosse and not have a women's program. 

I think absolutely there is a p.r. issue involved.   When a writer for The Ram or a member of the faculty senate asks why a women's program isn't being started at the same, time, how are you going to answer that?   There is no way you wouldn't be creating an issue that you want no part of. 

I never said it was strictly about numbers, but in the end it is because it's the prong out of the three prong test that is most commonly used and accepted. The DOE strongly discourages the dropping of sports in order to comply with Title IX, but this would not be such a case since we would be adding a sport. Title IX clearly states that one is to provide proportionate opportunities by sex and that sports should be chosen based on interest. Perhaps it's determined that women's lacrosse should be added too. If that's the case, great, we'd just need to drop one or two women's sports to accommodate the addition.

[RC74]

I think lacrosse is even more worth having than soccer.   

Oh ACE! To the quick! To the quick! (You traitor.  )
I disagree. Especially for a "national" university.
And I live in town that is a hotbed of lax. I know it has a fervid following regionally, but I agree with Ramon about taking care of what we have first.

[98ramgrad]

Don't know enough about the situation to have an opinion as to whether we should add lacrosse or not.  I do think of Duke, Hopkins, ND, etc though.  It might be nice to be in there company.  Also, in terms of a field, I wonder if the parking garage can be turfed on the roof and if that would suffice.  What are the dimensions for a lacrosse field?

[T1L]

Also, in terms of a field, I wonder if the parking garage can be turfed on the roof and if that would suffice.  What are the dimensions for a lacrosse field?

I believe it's larger than a soccer field, with the extra room required for behind the net. Also, I remember from previous times that the converting the roof into a field discussion has come up on the board, that the roof is just slightly smaller than what would be required for a soccer field, or it barely fits but does not leave enough room on some sides.

[txram]

I believe it's larger than a soccer field, with the extra room required for behind the net. Also, I remember from previous times that the converting the roof into a field discussion has come up on the board, that the roof is just slightly smaller than what would be required for a soccer field, or it barely fits but does not leave enough room on some sides.

Once again, Fordham "planning" does it's thing.

[SIram]

I respect those here who love the game and want to see their sport played at Fordham, I also believe that lacrosse is a sport where Fordham could do eventually do well.

But I do not think the time is right to start a team. There are too many things which need to be fixed right now which prevent our existing teams from succeeding starting with facilities and administration and ending with budget.

Let the new AD be hired, conduct their review, write and validate a strategic plan, address facilites, plan for their development and review the number of teams we now field before considering adding another.  If we were to add a team now it would like struggle for both playing space and resources and be condemned to the same lack of success that most of our teams now face. 

Why accept failure when time and proper  planning could yield success?

[ramesq]

fc79, I am sure some care about rowing. There's not a thing in this world that is not of interest to someone.  Rowing looks to be one of the toughest sports out there and I've watched it before, but in the grand scheme of things it is not high on the public interest scale. I would be thrilled if we could sponsor 25-30 sports without issue, but that's just not the case. In my opinion that means that all sports other than basketball are on the potential list to be cut.

What I think ace is getting at relates to visability and not interest. I would argue that with pretty much every college sport below basketball and football viability comes down to: (1) its visable because you're good at it or (2) you could be great at it and still no one would notice. To this point, and I agree with Ace, that every program should be evaluated and nothing should be excluded, save basketball, from potentially being cut.

However, low visability sports do have some when shaping an athletic profile for the school. For better or worse elite academic institutions are usually associated with success in certain sports. Rowing and sailing are two examples, and I mostly cite them because they are sports we have and are good at. Would it raise our greater athletic profile if we were elite in these sports, no, but it may among the type of students we are looking to attract. Lacrosse may fall into this category as well. My point is not to argue for any particular sport, but rather a hope the new AD has a atheltic profile in mind that he/she could sell to the university.

[fordham77]

I believe it's larger than a soccer field, with the extra room required for behind the net. Also, I remember from previous times that the converting the roof into a field discussion has come up on the board, that the roof is just slightly smaller than what would be required for a soccer field, or it barely fits but does not leave enough room on some sides.

Providence College figured out how to put a turf field up on the garage . . .but they don't have frightening glory or a Turf Field Executive of the Year.

[pjd]

the Kazimoroff Blvd baseball field could be the key to lacrosse and other sports (baseball, softball).  If Steitz gets named I will be emaling him on the potential of Fordham utilizing this field.